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chungviolins

Unusual top graduation

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I apologize, I got my Stradavari mixed up, I was thinking of the Cannone. I think it was Bruce who posted a video about it, it showed the curator playing it to keep it "warm".

Hi Jezzupe,

 

No, it was Prof. Andrea Mosconi who until recently played the violins in the Cremona City collection early each morning (usually scales and a piece by Bach or Gluck). He has retired and I don't think anyone is doing that anymore but they do use the instruments on occasion for recitals in the new Museo del Violino.

 

I check over the Cannone two or three times a year but it is only played on very rare occasions when there is a recital.

 

Bruce

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Hi Jezzupe,

 

No, it was Prof. Andrea Mosconi who until recently played the violins in the Cremona City collection early each morning (usually scales and a piece by Bach or Gluck). He has retired and I don't think anyone is doing that anymore but they do use the instruments on occasion for recitals in the new Museo del Violino.

 

I check over the Cannone two or three times a year but it is only played on very rare occasions when there is a recital.

 

Bruce

You should totally get that job dude. :D Sorry, you're right up there with King Hargrave in my book, so that should be, "your excellency Lord Bruce dude" :lol: ...how special it must be to be with it.

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I'm looking at Blueprints of Messiah, not sure who drew them, but they don't match the photo.  I'm thinking they were by Roth?  The top is thin, mostly 2.5 just about everywhere, and thicker toward the edges.  Sorry about my scratchings here and there, I've used this for 3 or 4, each time with a different result, all have been pretty good.

 

Messiahplate1.jpg

Hmm. This doesn't look anywhere close to the original post as far as the belly is concerned.   Where did you get this?

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I bought out a collection of documents of a retired maker from the 60's, this was included, and is pretty old as you can tell from the yellowing of the paper.  However, without a provenance ... the Strad poster may be more correct if newer, more accurate techniques are used to measure the graduations..  Notice the graduations are rounded to 0.25mm increments.   Not sure we should be all wrapped up in the graduations other than in a general sense, since we're not going to make it from the same log Stradivari used.   However, this does sort of confirm the reverse graduation theme.  

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Gradation maps are quite interesting in that they tell often tell us at least as much about the measurer as they do about the instrument. Indeed... let loose two respected collegues with their respective Haklinger guages on the same violin and I think the resulting Pluhar maps ( excellent in my opinion)  could look quite different. First of all we hope that they constantly monitor the calibration of their guage. Secondly where they measure or what they record tells a story about what they count as significant. For instance one measurer might get a reading of/1.3mm on a belly and think that there is no way that they will be copying that and edit it out whilst another measurer might take it as a significant find....and so on...And where one measurer might be looking for consistency another might be looking for inconsistency etc... Gradation maps are certainly becoming more detailed these days. Looking back at some of the seminal Strad posters and the ground breaking Biddulph Guarneri book the measurements often seem scant by today's criteria but they were amazing to see at the time.( still are)...In some ways using a  a Hacklinger can be illuminating but misleading. I realized over 20 years ago when a client of mine handed me a very nice CT scan of his cello that my understanding of what my Hackinger was telling me was reflecting my prejudice far more than the actual reality. I feel that the new trend for CT scanning can help us a lot...maybe even help us to measure even if a most of us can never use CT

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Gradation maps are quite interesting in that they tell often tell us at least as much about the measurer as they do about the instrument. Indeed... let loose two respected collegues with their respective Haklinger guages on the same violin and I think the resulting Phuhar maps could look quite different. First of all we hope that they constantly monitor the calibration of their guage. Secondly where they measure or what they record tells a story about what they count as significant. For instance one measurer might get a reading of/1.3mm on a belly and think that there is no way that they will be copying that and edit it out whilst another measurer might take it as a significant find....and so on... Gradation maps are certainly becoming more detailed these days. Looking back at some of the seminal Strad posters and the ground breaking Biddulph Guarneri book the measurements often seem scant by today's criteria but they were amazing to see at the time.( still are)...In some ways using a  a Hacklinger can be illuminating but misleading. I realized over 20 years ago when a client of mine handed me a very nice CT scan of his cello that my understanding of what my Hackinger was telling me was reflecting my prejudice far more than the actual reality. 

Nice post.

Thank you for this explanation, It makes sense to me, at least.

Regards, Dave.

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Gradation maps are quite interesting in that they tell often tell us at least as much about the measurer as they do about the instrument. Indeed... let loose two respected collegues with their respective Haklinger guages on the same violin and I think the resulting Phuhar maps could look quite different. First of all we hope that they constantly monitor the calibration of their guage. Secondly where they measure or what they record tells a story about what they count as significant. For instance one measurer might get a reading of/1.3mm on a belly and think that there is no way that they will be copying that and edit it out whilst another measurer might take it as a significant find....and so on... Gradation maps are certainly becoming more detailed these days. Looking back at some of the seminal Strad posters and the ground breaking Biddulph Guarneri book the measurements often seem scant by today's criteria but they were amazing to see at the time.( still are)...In some ways using a  a Hacklinger can be illuminating but misleading. I realized over 20 years ago when a client of mine handed me a very nice CT scan of his cello that my understanding of what my Hackinger was telling me was reflecting my prejudice far more than the actual reality. I feel that the new trend for CT scanning can help us a lot...maybe even help us to measure even if a most of us can never use CT

Yes, very well said, Melvin!

I guess we tend to believe things easily once they appear in print somewhere or are expressed in figures and so on. Means we should never stop questioning and searching, things we violin makers actually constantly do because there are no definite truths in an artform like this. This is of course not to say that the Messiah does not have definite measurements:-)

Cheers, Hans

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Should I abandon my reverse graduation experiment then?  :D

Why don't you make it thick and see how it sounds and then thin it to reverse graduation to see what happens?

Pretend you have a lousy Strad or del G and see if you can get it sound good enough that you can sell it.

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Why don't you make it thick and see how it sounds and then thin it to reverse graduation to see what happens?

Pretend you have a lousy Strad or del G and see if you can get it sound good enough that you can sell it.

I was thinking about doing that. But the bass bar might be in the way.

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Whether it sounds good or not,anything under 3.0 mm is not a good idea for sound post area because of the high stresses from the bridge  and post.

Once the arch starts to deform,it is very difficult to adjust the tone. 

I've seen so many new instruments whose sound post area is bulging out (and eventually leads to cracking) prematurely.

 

KY

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I'd be surprised if any measurements of the "Messiah" came from use of a Hacklinger.  Even with careful use I would think a curator would have nightmares.  


 


OTOH, what good way was there without taking the top off, and when was the top last off the Messiah?  I forget the name of who did those blueprints but haven't they been around since well before the new methods came around?  


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I'd be surprised if any measurements of the "Messiah" came from use of a Hacklinger.  Even with careful use I would think a curator would have nightmares.  

 

OTOH, what good way was there without taking the top off, and when was the top last off the Messiah?  I forget the name of who did those blueprints but haven't they been around since well before the new methods came around?  

 

Before the Hacklinger appeared I used the Reinert caliper which allows you to get to + or - 1/4 mm in the chest area and just into the upper and lower bouts on the front and between the c-bouts on the back. Needless to say it was very rudimentary but it worked. It works on the concept of the tool from the Stradivari workshop catalogued as MS661 except it has a calibrated scale in millimeters. If you don't use it carefully you risk damaging the edges of the soundholes. The Hacklinger is a lot safer and more accurate but you stil have to use it with care.

 

post-29446-0-07302900-1418541412.jpg post-29446-0-75978700-1418548270_thumb.jpg

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