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chungviolins

Unusual top graduation

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Only in the middle between the f-holes, where a sound post patch is needed. The rest is perfect, you just need to find a piece of wood that matches the graduation schema ;)

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This reminds me of an article I read on reverse graduation. The soundpost area can be reinforced using the Joseph Curtin trick - putting a maple veneer about .25mm thick.

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Overall, I think that pattern would be too thick if I used the stiffest wood in my stockpile, and too thin if I used the softest.  It also depends on what kind of sound you want.  I have made some violins with that overall thickness, usually with stiffer/denser wood.

 

I do agree that the soundpost and trebel bridge foot area should be thicker than the surrounding areas, for reliability concerns at least.

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Hard to tell just by the numbers, although I share the concern about the soundpost area.

Interesting reverse graduation pattern in the top, also in the back upper and lower bouts seem reversed.

 

 

Davide

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For those who didn't recognize it, this is the Messiah poster.

 

Lots of Strad graduations look too thin.  Some are even thinner.

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For those who didn't recognize it, this is the Messiah poster.

 

Lots of Strad graduations look too thin.  Some are even thinner.

Perhaps the top wood thickness should be selected on a cross-grain bending strength basis rather than longitudinal stiffness or speed of sound or other acoustic features.

 

I've had dealers say my violin top was too thin without even playing it to find out how it sounded.  Strad could get away with this but I can't.

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For those who didn't recognize it, this is the Messiah poster.

Lots of Strad graduations look too thin. Some are even thinner.

Perhaps the top wood thickness should be selected on a cross-grain bending strength basis rather than longitudinal stiffness or speed of sound or other acoustic features.

I've had dealers say my violin top was too thin without even playing it to find out how it sounded. Strad could get away with this but I can't.

Thanks for pointing out that it is Le Messie. I think the Master made a misstake and that the top should have had a higher arch for the wood selected

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Absolutely. It sounds like crap, too.

I wish it sounded like crap so nobody would ever want to play it again. Uh, actually no one is allowed to play it already so we aren't missing anything.  :D

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I've had dealers say my violin top was too thin without even playing it to find out how it sounded.  Strad could get away with this but I can't.

He's dead, so he can't be made to conform to industry standards. ;)

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The grads are only too thin if they don't work. If the top deforms or cracks it's too thin. If the sound is hollow and weak it's too thin. Otherwise wood density and strength, model, arching, sizing and varnish all may contribute to an instrument that works fine with thin grads.

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post-31393-0-20939100-1417988115_thumb.jpg

 

Hi there, I made color maps of this one, might be easier to understand the figures.

When judging top thicknesses I like to have a look at the back thicknesses too. Here the centre of the back is substantial.

 

Cheers, Hans

 

 

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It is .

That's very interesting.  I have a copy of the John Pringle drawing sold by the Ashmolean Museum ( the permanent home of The Messiah) and the plate thicknesses don't match Koo Young's photo at all.  

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The OP photo is of The Strad poster of the Messie.  Whether it's really the true grads or not... who knows.

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I wish it sounded like crap so nobody would ever want to play it again. Uh, actually no one is allowed to play it already so we aren't missing anything.  :D

Actually there is one guy who plays it.

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That's very interesting.  I have a copy of the John Pringle drawing sold by the Ashmolean Museum ( the permanent home of The Messiah) and the plate thicknesses don't match Koo Young's photo at all.  

Pringle's map does not match Pluhar's map which I have much faith in being right because I see a number of familiar Strad graduation features. 

 

BTW, this is not the first time I pointed out this problem with Pringle's Messiah graduation map.

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The OP photo is of The Strad poster of the Messie.  Whether it's really the true grads or not... who knows.

Yes, in order to add further obfuscation to reality. Certainly reinforces the "question everything" theory. Who did the measurements? were they qualified? what type of equipment was used? why do we have 2 different maps? which one is correct? is either of them correct? On and on. Related to violins as related to just about everything we "think" we know about certain things, we should not always take "facts" as "facts". As you pointed out, graduation maps that fail to account for stiffness factors mean nothing or not much.

 

So many distortions in the perception of "facts" also. We keep hearing/saying "too thin" in the soundpost area. I think when we say this there are many who think that the issue is that it is too thin and structural failure is eminent, whereas my feeling about the area being "too thin" is that Spruce in general has a certain local softness that will compress and gouge over the course of several adjustment/post replacements and that 2 will become 1.5 sooner than later, at which point we could be concerned about catastrophic failure. IMO 2 mm is fine as long as it has a 1 mm skid plate patch applied after final grad.

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Pringle's map does not match Pluhar's map which I have much faith in being right because I see a number of familiar Strad graduation features. 

 

BTW, this is not the first time I pointed out this problem with Pringle's Messiah graduation map.

Hello Michael, do you have the "Pringle thicknesses"? Can we have a look at them?

Cheers, Hans

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Pringle's map does not match Pluhar's map which I have much faith in being right because I see a number of familiar Strad graduation features. 

 

BTW, this is not the first time I pointed out this problem with Pringle's Messiah graduation map.

Hi again, by the way, I did not have the pleasure to measure the Messie! I used the figures of the Strad poster to create the color map. Just for clarification.

Kind regards, Hans

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