Violin Identification Class/Workshop

[usqebach]

Dear Members,

 

Having played this instrument for 17 years now (6 in school, 20 year break, 11 as a hobbyist) I find myself being more and more drawn in to the world of appreciation for fine instruments.  However, not having access to either a large inventory or a base of knowledge, I find myself with a greater desire to learn than an ability to teach myself.

 

Admittedly, with the rise of the internet, sites such as Tarisio/Cozio, and this wonderful forum, it seems as if pictures of every fine instrument I may want to see are readily available.  But these are just pictures.  It amazes me how differences that seem minute or indiscernable on a 2 dimensional screen are blindingly obvious when seen on an actual instrument in hand.

 

Living in Atlanta, I could possibly visit one of 3-4 reputable dealers in town and start looking.  However, I do have respect for a dealer's time and inventory, and don't want to spend time "hanging around," peppering them with questions about instruments which I have neither the means nor the ability to justify their purchase. (and given my very modest skill set and pursuit of folk fiddle as an avocation, I don't want to clear the building the first time I attempt to draw the bow across the strings!).

 

Does anyone know of, or have they considered creating, a class or workshop for violin identification and appreciation?  i was imagining something akin to Hans Nebel's Violin Repair Course without actually attempting to work on the instruments. It would most probably have to be held in a city like Chicago, Boston or NY, and have the cooperation of a local museum and/or dealers in the area. 

 

I'm thinking the course outline might read something like:

 

"Real vs. fake, how to spot the obvious,"

"The big 3 - France, Germany, Italy"

"Differences in family/school/region in 18th century Italy"

"How design differences impact tone"

 

That's just a few off the top of my head.  And I'm not beginning to think that one can replace a lifetime of experience with a weeklong class.  But it might be just enough to give aspirational afficinados such as myself an opportunity to learn the basics and whet one's appetite towards this craft.

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

i appreciate in advance your time and attention.

 

Jim Sims

[Will L]

This gets discussed periodically.

 

The last time, I believe, the topic heading was:  A School for Violin Connaisseurship.  I don't know how to bring it up.

[BassClef]

This gets discussed periodically.

 

The last time, I believe, the topic heading was:  A School for Violin Connaisseurship.  I don't know how to bring it up.

Here it is: http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/326561-a-school-for-violin-connoisseurship/

[Dwight Brown]

How about a dichotomous key to violin identification like they use for birds.  I bet that would be a whopper to do.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-access_key

[Kate Mohr]

Are you a member of the Violin Society of America? The VSA is starting up a New Professionals group and the focus is in educating, providing training opportunities, mentoring and most importantly listening to the needs of our members and figuring out how to meet them. 

 

I will most certainly make a note about this and see what we can do to try and meet this need, although, there are definitely some thoughts/talks already in the works. 

 

Have you seen http://www.markneukirchenbook.com/ it is great for German instruments, and very reasonably priced!

[Violadamore]

How about a dichotomous key to violin identification like they use for birds.  I bet that would be a whopper to do.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-access_key

You're not the first to suggest this, and it certainly is  

[Michael_Molnar]

I remember when Chris Reuning brought to Oberlin (Setup/Repair Workshop) a chest full of great instruments and asked us to identify them. That was very instructive.

[usqebach]

Thanks for the links to the previous threads, and the suggestion to join VSA.  I'll spend some more time reviewing these.  What I found fascinating was the perspective from several forum members that even a 4 year University degree would barely scratch the surface of developing a competency in instrument appreciation, and here I was hoping for a week of violin "fantasy camp" to get me started. 

 

sigh.... looks like my typical American pursuit of instant gratification has come up short yet again!

 

No need to drag this out any further unless someone wants to. 

 

Keep up the great posts and pictures.  I'll keep lurking and pop up in a few years if I have anything worth adding.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I remember when Chris Reuning brought to Oberlin (Setup/Repair Workshop) a chest full of great instruments and asked us to identify them. That was very instructive.

 

Jim Warren and Chris Reuning continue to visit the Oberlin Restoration Workshop every summer with instruments and bows... always fun and very much appreciated.  The exhibitions at the VSA conferences are also wonderful...  even for those of us who help produce them.  Always stuff to learn.

[duane88]

How about a dichotomous key to violin identification like they use for birds.  I bet that would be a whopper to do.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-access_key

A Microsoft friend suggest that he might be able to come up with some sort of computer algorithm that would aid in the identification of fine violins. He asked what i thought, and I told him that if it were possible, and he could do it, and it actually worked, that he would mysteriously disappear and never be seen or heard from again!

 

I am always interested in learning more about identification, but since it is the key to adding one "0" to the price of a nice violin, the best stuff is difficult to come by. 

 

How about 3 month internships a Tarisio! You'd see enough to help set the path with that sort of volume.

[nathan slobodkin]

Violin and bow identification is so complex and involves so much exposure to fine instruments that there are really no shortcuts to expertise. And as with many things a small amount of knowledge can be a dangerous thing in that people may know just enough to get themselves into situations where the only way out is to pass their mistakes on to someone else who knows even less. While there are some real experts who are extraordinarily generous with their knowledge including a number of posters on this forum I cannot imagine they would want to claim anyone as their student who they did not feel really qualified in their own right.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

A Microsoft friend suggest that he might be able to come up with some sort of computer algorithm that would aid in the identification of fine violins. He asked what i thought, and I told him that if it were possible, and he could do it, and it actually worked, that he would mysteriously disappear and never be seen or heard from again!

 

 

 

A group in Europe tried a computer based approach (I believe Roland Baumgartner was involved and spoke of it at a VSA meeting) with very disappointing results.

[Violadamore]

Violin and bow identification is so complex and involves so much exposure to fine instruments that there are really no shortcuts to expertise. And as with many things a small amount of knowledge can be a dangerous thing in that people may know just enough to get themselves into situations where the only way out is to pass their mistakes on to someone else who knows even less. While there are some real experts who are extraordinarily generous with their knowledge including a number of posters on this forum I cannot imagine they would want to claim anyone as their student who they did not feel really qualified in their own right.

While most or all of here have an interest in it, from a point of view of cold reality, the level of skill necessary to sort Strads and the like is beyond the reach of all but a very few of us.  If nothing else, the hand samples for a lab course on the subject of high end violin identification simply aren't available.  Even if, as I suspect will happen sometime before 2100, 3D printing improvements make adequate replicas (based on microscopically exact MRI scans) of series of famous makers' fiddles available to enthusiasts at modest cost, once you had such familiarization, what would you do with it?  The world can only support so many Charles Beares, etc. 

 

OTOH, blowing the whole subject of violin identification off as beyond the mental reach of the peasantry (which some of the comments I've seen here sound close to) is, IMHO, a totally indefensible position to take.  Those of us who cannot collect properly papered "major investments" over 10 grand or so in any useful quantity can certainly collect "rubbish" and become expert in the identification, maintenance, and use of it.  Anything else is like saying that those who cannot afford "Book" Thoroughbreds and race them shouldn't meddle with horses.  This is a diverse hobby and a diverse business besides, with considerable room for people to document and study the less prestigious parts of the violin spectrum 

[FiddleDoug]

I once asked Hans J. Nebel what would be the best way to really learn how to identify violins. He replied: Go back in time about 50 years, work in a really great violin shop (Wurlitzers for him), and handle and work on thourands of instruments.

 

Since I'm 65 now, I think that I might have trouble getting in another 40 years of experience.

[EricSwanson]

It would be an interesting idea to have an actual Workshop dedicated to matters of identification and provenance. The Ameican Federation of Violin and Bow Makers, the VSA, and Oberlin workshops all have lectures, visits by acknowledged experts, etc., but there is no single organized venue for discussing such things. I think folks are far more willing to tell you how they cut a bridge or what type of drill bit they use than how they identify certain makers or schools of making. It's easier too. An open discussion of the characteristics of makers, periods, and geographical differences would not only educate players, collectors, and shop owners, it would also help moden makers. I doubt it will happen though - such information is the result of hard-won years of experience and research. Most experts in the field may consider such knowledge to be proprietary?

[Kate Mohr]

It would be an interesting idea to have an actual Workshop dedicated to matters of identification and provenance. The Ameican Federation of Violin and Bow Makers, the VSA, and Oberlin workshops all have lectures, visits by acknowledged experts, etc., but there is no single organized venue for discussing such things. I think folks are far more willing to tell you how they cut a bridge or what type of drill bit they use than how they identify certain makers or schools of making. It's easier too. An open discussion of the characteristics of makers, periods, and geographical differences would not only educate players, collectors, and shop owners, it would also help moden makers. I doubt it will happen though - such information is the result of hard-won years of experience and research. Most experts in the field may consider such knowledge to be proprietary?

Eric! This is a great suggestion for the New Professionals group the VSA has started. This is something we've been considering. As my dad says "It is criminal to die without sharing your knowledge!"

[Stephen Faulk]

What you do is acquire several tall stacks of Sothebys catalogs for auctions of fine instruments from the last 60 years and put them in your bathroom. Then read them and study the photos while you go #2. You'll be up to speed in no time. 

[skiingfiddler]

Since starting the thread on violin connoisseurship more than 2 years ago, I'm now more convinced than ever that establishing programs of violin connoisseurship at university levels would benefit violin knowledge. 

 

One reason for that conviction is seeing  some experts move out of the field through retirement or death without the knowledge they had going into a common, public, and continuing pool of violin knowledge.  The knowledge they had went with them or was passed on to only a select few heirs.  Knowledge about an important topic should not be passed on to only a select few.  There needs to be an on going repository of violin knowledge available to all.

 

A second reason for that conviction is that in the current system, there's immense pressure on the recognized experts to be right 100% of the time because large amounts of money are at stake.  That's not conducive to expanding knowledge.  No other field of knowledge has the implicit requirement that you don't offer an opinion unless you are certain that you are right.  In every other field participants freely offer their opinions, sometimes quite speculative ones, and the field, as a whole, examines the opinions and some kind of consensus might emerge -- or not.   In most fields, it's ok to eventually be proven wrong, as long as the belief, at its inception, had some foundation to it.  In fact, the examination of ideas and proving them wrong is an important part of scientific progress.  In the violin trade, being wrong is simply financially unaffordable.

 

Reason 2 leads to my 3rd reason: In a field in which knowledge isn't freely developed, exchanged and challenged, gurus emerge, whose very words and opinions are assumed to be as good as fact.  That's not good for the evolution of knowledge.

 

For any field of knowledge, the larger the forum in which knowledge can be freely offered and challenged without financial concerns, the more reliable that knowledge is.  The university offers the widest possible forum of that kind.

 

Steven Csik

[Jeffrey Holmes]

It would be an interesting idea to have an actual Workshop dedicated to matters of identification and provenance. The Ameican Federation of Violin and Bow Makers, the VSA, and Oberlin workshops all have lectures, visits by acknowledged experts, etc., but there is no single organized venue for discussing such things. I think folks are far more willing to tell you how they cut a bridge or what type of drill bit they use than how they identify certain makers or schools of making. It's easier too. An open discussion of the characteristics of makers, periods, and geographical differences would not only educate players, collectors, and shop owners, it would also help moden makers. I doubt it will happen though - such information is the result of hard-won years of experience and research. Most experts in the field may consider such knowledge to be proprietary?

 

My humble opinion...

 

I believe many here underestimate how often these events occur.  As one who has helped organize some of these events, I have also observed that expectations and actual interest/commitment/concentration/comprehension levels vary considerably in group settings.

 

While I'm not against expansion of the number of lectures and workshops, or their scope, through the Federation, VSA and within the various workshops, I think many here are still underestimating what sort of personal effort is required, overestimating the speed of the learning curve, and some may risk falling into the "Glass Bead Game" of intellectual institutions.  

 

I know of no great experts (alive in my lifetime) that have withheld information to truly interested parties, with the possible exception of avoiding loading on tons of information that some interested parties aren't really ready to grasp.  The generosity of those who have published the many useful books, exhibition catalogs, and taken part in lectures an panel discussions is to be applauded. This forum itself has offered many identification threads in days gone by.

 

The basic information for general knowledge (basic ID) is out there.  Understanding the basic classic models is the key to the cabinet.  Discovering how each school interpreted those models, when they did, the materials used, and what their construction methods were is the next step. The finer stuff (small specific details, recognition of alteration, etc.) comes with time.  Notes and photographs aid the memory and are critical for comparisons.

 

Just another opinion...  If you can draw it, it may help you understand it better.  Sometimes staring at photos, or the real thing, doesn't really tell you as much about the geometry as you'd think.  A few basic rules (where the lines of the wings extend in space, etc) followed in a layout box will in themselves begin to produce a Guarneri del Gesu-ish f hole, a Strad-ish hole, or an Amati-ish hole, for example.

[EricSwanson]

I agree that there is a wealth of information out there and that one, on their own, can persue this type of knowledge if they care to. Also, I have opersonally been helped by many folks in this field in this regard and am grateful for their generosity.

 

It is also true that it is one thing to say, "Hey, we should put together a workshop on this", and to actually do the hard work to create one.

 

That being siad, its still a great idea!

 

-Eric

[nathan slobodkin]

While most or all of here have an interest in it, from a point of view of cold reality, the level of skill necessary to sort Strads and the like is beyond the reach of all but a very few of us.  If nothing else, the hand samples for a lab course on the subject of high end violin identification simply aren't available.  Even if, as I suspect will happen sometime before 2100, 3D printing improvements make adequate replicas (based on microscopically exact MRI scans) of series of famous makers' fiddles available to enthusiasts at modest cost, once you had such familiarization, what would you do with it?  The world can only support so many Charles Beares, etc. 

 

OTOH, blowing the whole subject of violin identification off as beyond the mental reach of the peasantry (which some of the comments I've seen here sound close to) is, IMHO, a totally indefensible position to take.  Those of us who cannot collect properly papered "major investments" over 10 grand or so in any useful quantity can certainly collect "rubbish" and become expert in the identification, maintenance, and use of it.  Anything else is like saying that those who cannot afford "Book" Thoroughbreds and race them shouldn't meddle with horses.  This is a diverse hobby and a diverse business besides, with considerable room for people to document and study the less prestigious parts of the violin spectrum 

Sorry if you thought I was implying that "The peasantry" was not capable of learning. The issue is not one of personality but of oportunity. As you point out with out the chance to see fine instruments on a regular basis over a long preiod of time it's hard to learn about them. However your contention that one can learn to identify lesser instruments is not really true either. In some ways recognizing 17th and 18th century instruments made by isolated comunities with limited external influences is easier than later and lesser instruments which were often anonymous to begin with and made bt people with much more diverse exposure to work from other countries and eras. My primary point remains that adding a premium to the selling price of instruments based on speculative or conjectured asignation of origin occurs far too often and that the knowledge to really KNOW these origins is very hard to come by.

[Violadamore]

Sorry if you thought I was implying that "The peasantry" was not capable of learning. The issue is not one of personality but of oportunity. As you point out with out the chance to see fine instruments on a regular basis over a long preiod of time it's hard to learn about them. However your contention that one can learn to identify lesser instruments is not really true either. In some ways recognizing 17th and 18th century instruments made by isolated comunities with limited external influences is easier than later and lesser instruments which were often anonymous to begin with and made bt people with much more diverse exposure to work from other countries and eras. My primary point remains that adding a premium to the selling price of instruments based on speculative or conjectured asignation of origin occurs far too often and that the knowledge to really KNOW these origins is very hard to come by.

My comments were not restricted to comments in this thread alone, and really weren't restricted to this discipline.  Professional connoisseurs (and I include certain taxonomy freaks here) in general are fond of baying about how incredibly difficult their task is, particularly when younger, sharper eyed students show an interest in learning their arcane secrets.  One wonders if the "experts" realize how this appears to those who routinely transmit organized bodies of extremely complicated knowledge to students without all the drama.  Where it occurs, I object to the not uncommon practice of discouraging interested students (mostly already successful scholars in other areas) from studying something because "it's simply too difficult for you" as well as to the disgusting habit of sitting on publications, "trade secrets", etc. and opposing any attempts to systematize complicated fields to make them easier to teach.

 

I do not dispute your primary point at all and agree with you that there's a lot of chicanery going on.  As provenance is a moot or side issue with my general inventory, my interest in identification is mainly academic.  My prices are based on work done, utility, and condition.

[Omobono]

My humble opinion...

The basic information for general knowledge (basic ID) is out there.  Understanding the basic classic models is the key to the cabinet.  Discovering how each school interpreted those models, when they did, the materials used, and what their construction methods were is the next step. The finer stuff (small specific details, recognition of alteration, etc.) comes with time.  Notes and photographs aid the memory and are critical for comparisons.

Nicely put, Jeffrey, as always.

[chungviolins]

You have to see as many as good violins possible,and learn from experts.

 

It's almost impossible unless you're working in the violin business full time.

 

KY

[nathan slobodkin]

You have to see as many as good violins possible,and learn from experts.

 

It's almost impossible unless you're working in the violin business full time.

 

KY

And a rare specialty even among those who do.