Premade Oil Varnish/Colors

[ViolinLove20]

Okay so I have stripped (or attempted to strip) the violin and so far have done the following:

2 dilute coats amber shellac

2 coats yellowish clear varnish

1 coat glaze using artists colors (still drying)

[ctanzio]

The finishing order I would use would be:

1. amber shellac for the ground to seal and highlight the grain,

2. as many glaze/color coats as needed to get a uniform color that is pretty to the eyes,

3. clear varnish coats to build up the surface so it is ready for polishing

4. your favorite polishing method.

The main issue of putting the color coat on last is that any polishing attempt would wear away the color and might make it non-uniform.

[David Burgess]

The finishing order I would use would be:

1. amber shellac for the ground to seal and highlight the grain,

2. as many glaze/color coats as needed to get a uniform color that is pretty to the eyes,

3. clear varnish coats to build up the surface so it is ready for polishing

4. your favorite polishing method.

The main issue of putting the color coat on last is that any polishing attempt would wear away the color and might make it non-uniform.

I'm a little sketchy on steps three and four. What is your polishing method, that it requires clear varnish coats? And what kind of surface are you trying to achieve?

[jezzupe]

Okay so I have stripped (or attempted to strip) the violin and so far have done the following:

2 dilute coats amber shellac

2 coats yellowish clear varnish

1 coat glaze using artists colors (still drying)

Ah....no....You need to understand that varnishing is a process that is like a building, it has a foundation with everything else sitting on top of that.

 

This will always not look great because your foundation {surface prep} is not good. You have not removed all the old varnish, and therefore this.

 

If you would like I will walk you through a process that will get you great results in a very simple way. But you'd have to want to start over.

[ViolinLove20]

Jezzupe,

Start over as in strip the instrument again? Okay. Its meant for practice anyways.

[ctanzio]

I'm a little sketchy on steps three and four. What is your polishing method, that it requires clear varnish coats? And what kind of surface are you trying to achieve?

The final step is to smooth the surface and add a desired sheen. This involves the use of some sort of abrasive. So the thickness of the clear varnish over the color coat must be sufficiently thick to allow smoothing, impart a sheen, and still leave enough varnish to get some visual depth and protect all the layers underneath.

For example, the following test sheet was done with a mineral ground, a pigmented urethane color coat, and multiple clear coats of linseed oil until I was confident I could rub out the surface finish I wanted without hitting the color coat.

I was going for a satin, smooth finish that gave one the appearance of touching the actual wood, rather than touching a thick, glossy varnish.

The "polish" was done with 0000 furniture grade steel wool dipped in soapy water. A gentle, circular motion was used and then patted dry. This step was repeated until the surface felt completely smooth to the touch.

The picture is a little fuzzy, but the natural texture of the wood shows through and it feels great to the touch. As in ViolinLove20's finish, the use of a pigment, Indian Red in this case, reduced what little contrast there was in the grain to start.

[jezzupe]

Jezzupe,

Start over as in strip the instrument again? Okay. Its meant for practice anyways.

yep

[ViolinLove20]

Jezzupe,

I'd like to hear your process.

All,

Bedsides oil paint colors, what other ways could I color an oil varnish? Pigments (and with pigments, how do you add them)? Color extract? Other ways?

[ctanzio]

Bedsides oil paint colors, what other ways could I color an oil varnish? Pigments (and with pigments, how do you add them)? Color extract? Other ways?

 

Oil paint colors are essentially pigments, i.e., whatever colors they do not absorb they scatter/reflect as oppose to letting the light pass through. Just add them directly to the oil or thinner.

 

Are you asking about transparent colors as opposed to pigment colors? There are many ways to add these to oil varnish depending on their chemical properties.

 

Common colorants that are transparent and mix directly with oil are rosin type solids with names like copal, dammar, mastic and colophony. There has been an enormous amount of info about these posted in the forums and on the internet. So doing a search on those words might be a good next step.

[ViolinLove20]

I'll do some searches, there is probably lots of info on them, as you said.

[jezzupe]

Jezzupe,

I'd like to hear your process.

All,

Bedsides oil paint colors, what other ways could I color an oil varnish? Pigments (and with pigments, how do you add them)? Color extract? Other ways?

Ok it's like this. I'd be glad to help, but it would need to be kinda like this 1. we need to do it via regular email so it can be more "personal" with interactions and so the phone can be involved if needed, it will most definitely include picture be sent to me as steps progress so I can catch anything wrong.....for example I would not have let you proceed to the point of applying varnish as you did, as it was not ready for that...at any rate 2. There are a million and one different ways to skin this cat, everyone has their different methods, techniques and products that they like. The reality is that you would need to have "faith" in this "system" and basically follow my instructions somewhat on blind faith that this procedure will yield good results.

 

The reality is that this would become a "private student/teacher" moment...{hmm something about that sounds wrong}   and quite frankly, as much as I love and respect the people and the minds I have got to know here on the forum, I have a feeling a "too many cooks" in the kitchen thing would start happening and it could derail the entire thing. As we see people will start debating, in a friendly way, most times, the tiniest thing and imo it could disturb the fuengshuay of it all.

 

Now what I would say is this. I know real expensive varnish, such as Joe Robson's varnish, a varnish that I consider to be the best available out of the bottle product that is specifically made for stringed instruments, {a product that down the road when you get good enough to use I would suggest you check out, or better yet take one of his courses}..... yet I have years of experience in the construction industry doing just about every type of varnish "experience" that one may encounter in high end building, with thousands of sq ft of wood flooring in that. What this comes down to is I have a broad understanding of products that are available to the general public as well as products that would be considered "professional" grade. The reality is that perfectly fine looking varnish jobs can come from products that are available "cheap" and are sold at paint stores and hardware stores along with things that are in your kitchen. To the trained eye there may be some differences, the 300 year life span is unknown, but if anyone here can tell me how their varnish will look 300 years from now, well I'm all ears

 

Anyway if you want to you can pm me or track my email down via my site.  You will need a small amount of money to buy some products and need the level of commitment to do some sample work on boards and over all general commitment to a final finish that will involve you taking pictures, and of course deal with my non vague verbose longwindeness

[ViolinLove20]

Jezzupe,

Thank you very much for the offer, but right now life is keeping me too busy to commit to your process.

To all,

For now I'd really like to keep this forum going as a place to collect or pose ideas, processes, possible materials, results, etc. Anyways, I'll keep posting my results!

Thanks

[ViolinLove20]

I've probably asked this question a thousand times, but how can someone color a clear oil varnish? (Hoping to maintain transparency)

[MikeC]

Hi VL.   to answer your question how to color varnish.   The old Cremona masters used lake pigments.  You can still buy those from Kremer.com it's not all that expensive. 

 

   You're not going to be making your own varnish from scratch but if you ever decide to try that then it's common to try and make the rosin as colored as possible by heating it to high temperature before combining it with oil to make the varnish.

 

  I assume you would be starting out using a premade colorless varnish so I still think that lake pigments are the best rout to go.   Look for madder lakes  on the kremer site.   you can also make your own madder lakes but you probably don't want to do that unless you just like to make stuff.     

[ViolinLove20]

Mike,

Thanks! I have been poking around that site looking at all the products that they have. Also, does the word lake mean it will be transparent?

[MikeC]

 a lake is a type of pigment but the pigment particle size is small enough that it's pretty much transparent.  At least that's my understanding.  I haven't made any but I've used some recently and like the results.   Others here could probably tell you more about it.   I'm no expert.  

[gborelli]

Wow, this is one of most interesting posts I have found on Violin coloring and has scared me to death.  I am a Luthier but have not done any violin repair and I am now faced with a problem I didn't expect.  Obviously color.  I have repaired an in expensive violin that had a piece broken off in the F-hole.  I glued the piece back on but the finish has all but disappeared from all of the handling I did.  My bad.  I had no idea that color was as difficult and held as close to the heart at it is in Violin creation and work.  Now I am not looking to do anything more that to try and match the color of the violin that I am working on, about a 3/4" x 2" piece.  So how does someone overcome this problem.  

Totally perplexed and in dire need of help,

 

Gary

Edited October 24, 2019 by gborelli

[MekG]

Pretty sure Holtier varnish is kremer re-packaged. Used both and they seem the same. Curious to know what others think?

[joerobson]

16 hours ago, MekG said:

Pretty sure Holtier varnish is kremer re-packaged. Used both and they seem the same. Curious to know what others think?

Eugene makes that varnish.

[JacksonMaberry]

On 12/15/2014 at 9:34 PM, ViolinLove20 said:

I've probably asked this question a thousand times, but how can someone color a clear oil varnish? (Hoping to maintain transparency)

If you want maximum transparency in a colored varnish, it is hard to beat rosinates. There's an article about how to make them and varnish from them in the most recent issue of the VSA's "The Scroll". You can also buy rosinate oil varnish under the brand "Dr. J.G. McIntosh".