MikeC Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 I think an artists oil paint glaze is not bad as long as it doesn't get too thick. The thicker it is the more opaque it becomes. If you mull lake pigments into varnish it will be much more transparent. I recently tried cochineal lake for the first time. A little of it goes a long way! CT is right, just plow ahead. The best way to lean is by doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 So what I should do is color the varnish, not do a glaze? I say that you can do both. Coloring the base varnish will give you a nice even color to work with, and to start with, and that's necessary. You can stop there, if and when that is the effect that you want, or you can then, also, layer on different color coats in what ever densities and in whatever areas you'd like. But, layering on colors is, or, can easily be, fraught with problems. Too much, even with "transparent" oil colors, can become so dense, that they start to obscure the grain and figure in the wood. (as I believe you have seen) The way I got around this problem is that I came up with a fairly color heavy base varnish to use, that was still very transparent... It was made from pure road tar. Or, Asphalt - which looks black to you and me, but which is actually a very very dense reddish/orangish color. As a base, it colored my varnish wonderfully when it was thinned and added to an oil varnish base color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 As I try these methods, would you guys want to see pictures of the results? Oh, I see that you posted this question. Sorry, I missed it earlier this morning. Yes, PLEASE post your progress here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 CT is right, just plow ahead. The best way to learn is by doing. Yes. I'm 100% with you on this one, Mike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGV Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 It took me to about violin #20, before I came to my final workable methods. I'll see if I can find one of my old varnish posts and re post it. #20? Now, I don't feel so bad after screwing up my #4. I'd love to see your old varnish posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolinLove20 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Thanks very much for the encouragement, all of you. I think now that I'm beginning to understand this type of varnishing, I'm going to strip the violin, then start over with the following process: *1 or 2 thin/dilute coats of amber shellac *Redish/darkish ground of tung oil + colors (transparent) + turpentine *1 or at most 2 color coats, or maybe not even any color coats *finish with clear coats then let be for __ days then polish How does that sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctanzio Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 So what I should do is color the varnish, not do a glaze? Coloring materials fall into two general categories: filters and pigments. You have been adding pigments to your varnish and glaze. These absorb/block certain colors and reflect/disperse others. Let's use an example of a yellow pigment. A white light shining on a yellow pigmented varnish/glaze would have the blue photons absorbed, and the red/green photons dispersed. The red/green photons would appear as yellow to the eye. If the pigment is very finely ground and modest density in the varnish, some of this yellow light will make it to the wood surface where it would be further colored by the contrast in grain and then reflected back. But it would again be intercepted by some of the pigment. With a little thought you will realize the thicker the pigmented coat, or the more dense the pigment in the varnish, then the more the yellow light never makes it to the wood surface. The light that does bounce off the wood will get dispersed again as it travels back through the varnish. Pigments reduce the amount of light reaching the wood, and disperse the light that reflects off the wood. Thus the loss in detail. A white light shining on a yellow filtered varnish would have the blue photons absorbed, but the red/green photons would pass right through! So a more intense beam of yellow light strikes the wood surface. It is colored by the wood texture and passes back through the filtered varnish. Non-yellow colors picked up are again absorbed and the rest pass though back to the eye. Filters reduce the amount of light of a certain color reaching the wood and passing back through the varnish after it is reflects off the wood. You have less loss in detail. Advanced varnish recipes have filtering materials added to the "clear" oils, although the term "pigment" is used rather loosely and commonly in the recipes. So when looking over varnish/glaze coloring formulas, one of the first things you want to ask yourself is are the actually using a pigment (absorb/disperse) or are they using a filter (absorb/pass through)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 That's too complicated an explantion and some of it is wrong. a yellow pigment absorbs all frequencies of light except yellow which is reflected. Red plus green photons do not make yellow photons. If I'm wrong about that then show me a link that explains it. Anyway the simple version, paint pigment particles are for the most part opaque. Dyes on the other hand are transparent. On my number 2 vvso (vaguely violin shaped object) I put on it some cheap varnish. I suspect it was danish oil colored with anyline dye or some other type of dye. That would have been ok if enough dye had been added but it was weak. Then I glazed it with alizarin crimson artist oil paint but just a thin layer and a bit thicker around the C bouts to try and 'antique' it. I would do it differently next time if there is a next time. Don't buy cheap varnish from ebay. And don't trust paypal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violins88 Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 glazes can have some opaqueness. Lake pigments are better and nano oxides. they are much more transparent and yet still give good color. Mike, Have you tried the nano-oxides? Thanks John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Violins88: I have a good supply of brown nano-oxide. You do?...sweet...I'll buy some brown. -em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 So when looking over varnish/glaze coloring formulas, one of the first things you want to ask yourself is are the actually using a pigment (absorb/disperse) or are they using a filter (absorb/pass through)? The best test is to put some on a sheet of glass, then shine light through the sample. And compare that to what it looks like with light shining on the sample. Filters and pigments behave very differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Hi V88 I have tried some nano oxide and it is also very transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violins88 Posted December 11, 2014 Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 Hi V88 I have tried some nano oxide and it is also very transparent. MikeC Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolinLove20 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2014 I feel dumb asking...but what are nano oxides? Also, I should use aniline dyes or transparent colors instead of normal artist colors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctanzio Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 That's too complicated an explantion and some of it is wrong. a yellow pigment absorbs all frequencies of light except yellow which is reflected. Although it is true that SOME yellow pigments may absorb all photons except those that are around the 600nm wavelength band (yellow), that is not necessarily the case for all yellow pigments. You need to revisit how the eye detects photons and how the brain interprets those photons as color. The three types of color detection rods in the human eye form the basis of the RGB color system. Ever notice that old cathode ray TVs and modern LED TVs have no problem displaying yellow with only red, green and blue light sources? The essential information remains correct: pigments absorb some frequencies and disperse others, filters absorb some frequencies and allow others to pass thought. Not sure how I can make it any simpler than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGV Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 I'm totally confused. I suppose you can make it simpler for me by listing a few filter ingredients that one can buy off the shelf. For example, is nano-oxide readily available outside of 88's supply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 I feel dumb asking...but what are nano oxides? Also, I should use aniline dyes or transparent colors instead of normal artist colors? The reason you are here on MN is to learn. So, don't be upset. Nano-oxides are nanometer-sized particles of iron oxides (there are several kinds giving different colors). Look up what a nanometer is. That is where "nano" is derived. John Schmidt has some incredible nano-oxide pigments, but they need to be blended with your varnish. An inexperienced maker should not tackle these. There are more important things to learn. I would never use aniline dyes. They are fugitive, meaning they fade away in your UV light box. That happened to my first violin. We all want to use transparent colors if we can find them. Dyes are among the best transparent colorants, but some people do not like their color tone. Some are better than others. Books have been written on this subject. There is a ton of information here on MN. You should learn how to search for it. Artist colors (from tubes) work in thin glazes or in small quantities mixed in varnish. Artists prefer some opacity while wood varnishers want transparency to reveal the wood figure. A little opacity is tolerable. Some artist colors can be very transparent. You will have to search around for them and judge for yourself. Search the MN archives for discussions on this. If you are new to violin making I suggest that you just try off the shelf products for the first instrument. You will have opportunity to experiment later. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViolinLove20 Posted December 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Yes, I agree. I'm am really excited to try commercial products, but am waiting a while longer before buying any. Would hammerl from IV be a good start? Also, what else could I use to color tung oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 ctanzio you have gotten me curious now, I'm going to some googling on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredN Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Finally found this very interesting article on how to separate alizarin from the attached glycosides( sugars), alizarin is only around 1% of the madder molecule. Alizarin is typically separated by acid hydrolysis or fermentation, not easy. The attached paper is so easy I hope someone tries it. Alizarin is a very intense dye, permanent, and mordants easily. While digging for the above paper I found a bib card for Philosophical Transactions; 1694-1704, p 167- (I think I only made an excerpt) "Of a red color by a mixture of sulphureous spirit with a volatile alcali." (title) "Mixed sulphureous spirit with volatile alcali such as spirit of sal ammoniac, or urine, etc. Gives immediately a red color. Made spirit by distilling 2-3 pounds benzoin, with a little sand, in a retort, ad siccitatem, and putting the oil, spirit, and flowers (flowers of sulfur?) altogether in a paper filter. The spirit comes through first. Use two parts of spirit for 1 of sal ammoniac or urine." Sulfur is an important component of modern dyes. Thought I'd print it to give an idea of chemiicals available early 1700's and making a colorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredN Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Apologize, I should have read it again- maybe not so easy. fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Finally found this very interesting article on how to separate alizarin from the attached glycosides( sugars), alizarin is only around 1% of the madder molecule. Alizarin is typically separated by acid hydrolysis or fermentation, not easy. The attached paper is so easy I hope someone tries it. Alizarin is a very intense dye, permanent, and mordants easily. While digging for the above paper I found a bib card for Philosophical Transactions; 1694-1704, p 167- (I think I only made an excerpt) "Of a red color by a mixture of sulphureous spirit with a volatile alcali." (title) "Mixed sulphureous spirit with volatile alcali such as spirit of sal ammoniac, or urine, etc. Gives immediately a red color. Made spirit by distilling 2-3 pounds benzoin, with a little sand, in a retort, ad siccitatem, and putting the oil, spirit, and flowers (flowers of sulfur?) altogether in a paper filter. The spirit comes through first. Use two parts of spirit for 1 of sal ammoniac or urine." Sulfur is an important component of modern dyes. Thought I'd print it to give an idea of chemiicals available early 1700's and making a colorant. Thanks Fred! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violins88 Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Finally found this very interesting article on how to separate alizarin from the attached glycosides( sugars), alizarin is only around 1% of the madder molecule. Alizarin is typically separated by acid hydrolysis or fermentation, not easy. The attached paper is so easy I hope someone tries it. Alizarin is a very intense dye, permanent, and mordants easily. While digging for the above paper I found a bib card for Philosophical Transactions; 1694-1704, p 167- (I think I only made an excerpt) "Of a red color by a mixture of sulphureous spirit with a volatile alcali." (title) "Mixed sulphureous spirit with volatile alcali such as spirit of sal ammoniac, or urine, etc. Gives immediately a red color. Made spirit by distilling 2-3 pounds benzoin, with a little sand, in a retort, ad siccitatem, and putting the oil, spirit, and flowers (flowers of sulfur?) altogether in a paper filter. The spirit comes through first. Use two parts of spirit for 1 of sal ammoniac or urine." Sulfur is an important component of modern dyes. Thought I'd print it to give an idea of chemiicals available early 1700's and making a colorant. Fred, You say alizarin is permanent. Do you have a citation for that? Thanks John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredN Posted December 12, 2014 Report Share Posted December 12, 2014 Hi John, use of the word "permanent" was overstated, but compared to other colorants used, it is certainly is far more lasting. A lot depends on the over coat of varnish, one like Copal( spar varnish) is highly actinic, filtering out UV, reducing the effect of light. I don't know of any organic dye that you can call permanent. Me, I use an umber pigment reacting with the acidity of rosin to make a colored acetate, with a ground coat of alkanet/pumice. But I keep on trying organic colorants. fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredN Posted December 13, 2014 Report Share Posted December 13, 2014 Hi John (re post 98)- The attached is an indication of its permanence. This is from Protective and Decorative Coatings Vol II p9. But you are right to question the use the term of permanence for organic colorants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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