Premade Oil Varnish/Colors

[ViolinLove20]

Okay some progress has been made. First I obtained oil paint colors and tung oil. Then I mixed tung oil, paint color (Indian yellow?) and a smidgey of turpentine and called it a varnish.

On the pictured violin I have an amber shallac ground coat, followed by a currently drying clearish/yellow coat of the oil varnish. I plan to add more colors next.

Edit: there seem to be lots of little bumps in the drying oil varnish. Is this dust or something varnish will just do? I applied with a brush as the varnish was very thin.

[violins88]

Even though I have that list of ideas, if anyone has any other pieces of advice or ideas, I'd love to hear them. I'm an aspiring knowledge hoarder.

Ok, here goes.

 

I have a good supply of brown nano-oxide. I sell this stuff, but really have not advertised.  The most important thing about nano oxides is the permanence. Iron oxides are inorganic. Alizarin is organic. I don't know what will happen to alizarin in 300 years, but I am confident that nano-oxides in varnish will last 1,000 years.  The other thing to know is that a pigment is made of small opaque particles that scatter light. -- except when the particles are less than 1/2 the wavelength of the light. Then there is no scattering. No cloudiness.

 

I know that advertising is against the rules on Mnet. However, this is a case where you want to know your options. If I don't tell you, you won't know about it. 

 

One more point.  Even though the nano oxides are theoretically totally transparent, in practice, because they are not 100 percent pure small particles, the brown nano oxide is only 90 percent transparent. But David Burgess tested them and liked the result.

[DGV]

Edit: there seem to be lots of little bumps in the drying oil varnish. Is this dust or something varnish will just do? I applied with a brush as the varnish was very thin.

 

Looks like tiny air bubbles to me.

[ctanzio]

Tung oil, and similar vegetable-based drying oils, harden naturally by reacting with oxygen in the air. If you put it on a bit too thick you can get a slow drying, lumpy surface finish as the oxygen cannot easily get to all levels of the varnish coa. Even if the varnish appears thin, using a brush to apply can make a surprisingly thick coat.

There are topics on this site by professionals who explain techniques for applying thick coats of varnish, so a forum search might be helpful. They also tend to use UV lights to penetrate through the varnish thickness to cure it, rather than relying on natural oxygen absorption.

I usually make a wiping compound, which is 1 part solvent, like turpentine, to 1 part varnish (in your case, tung oil + pigment). I prefer mineral spirits to turpentine to avoid the odor issues. This can then be thinly brushed or wiped on for a smooth, consistent finish, but you will need multiple coats before the final "rubbing" process.

One of the hassles with the color coat being so lumpy is that sanding it smooth can result in an inconsistent color across the surface. It can be a big hassle trying to correct the color by adding additional color coats.

I've experimented a lot with oil-based artist colors as varnish pigments. The ones that appear transparent or translucent when painted thinly on a white sheet seem to do the best job of adding coloring without hiding the wood texture. Yellows and brighter reds and oranges usually work.

I like how it came out with that simple shellac ground.

[MikeC]

Amber shelac does make a good looking ground coat.  Even though that maple doesn't have curl it still has some nice looking grain.   I wonder about using tung oil.  Is it real tung oil or Formby's?    It's more common to use boiled linseed oil.   It looks good so far.  

[joerobson]

." Alizarin is organic."

 

88,

Madder colors are organically derived.  Alizarin is the in-organic chemically derived imitation of one of the colorants in madder root.

Joe

 

[violins88]

 

." Alizarin is organic."

 

88,

Madder colors are organically derived.  Alizarin is the in-organic chemically derived imitation of one of the colorants in madder root.

Joe

 

 

Joe,

I am no chemist, but Wikipedia says alizarin is organic here.

[Don Noon]

It all depends on whether you consider a synthetically produced product using mostly organic materials to duplicate a naturally occurring chemical is "organic" or not.  

[franciscus]

Alizarin is organic, according to definition of organic matter. Its origin is the another story.

[violins88]

It all depends on whether you consider a synthetically produced product using mostly organic materials to duplicate a naturally occurring chemical is "organic" or not.  

???

 

I think "organic" means containing carbon chains and carbon rings, with a few exceptions. For example sodium carbonate is not organic. It contains carbon, but not a carbon chain or ring. Anyway, my main point is that nano oxides are permanent, whereas most organic compounds can be change by UV radiation. IMHO.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"An organic compound is any member of a large class of gaseous, liquid, or solid chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon. For historical reasons discussed below, a few types of carbon-containing compounds such as carbides, carbonates, simple oxides of carbon (such as CO and CO₂), and cyanides are considered inorganic.^[1] The distinction between organic and inorganic carbon compounds, while "useful in organizing the vast subject of chemistry... is somewhat arbitrary."^[2]

[joerobson]

Yeah I guess this falls into the class of synthetic organics....like the quinacridones...I think alizarin is a petrochemical derivative.

My comment is not pointed to the chemistry but the the nature of the colors.  Alizarins are strong and relatively monochromatic.  Madder based colors are more complex.

Joe

[ViolinLove20]

Maybe one day I'll fully understand the information just posted...

Anyways! Progress:

After the coat of varnish dried, I applied a color coat composed of: tung oil, oil paint colors, and a hint on linseed oil. I used burnt umber and red iron oxide for the colors. It comes out as a rather thin liquid, and can be brushed on then rubbed or fingerpatted out. The color is still very under developed, but I'm asumming future coats will take care of that. Also, a big thank you to Chet Bishop. This is a method he posted, and so far I'm very much liking my results.

[Guest]

You're on the road...congrats!

-em

[franciscus]

Yeah I guess this falls into the class of synthetic organics....like the quinacridones...I think alizarin is a petrochemical derivative.

Actually, synthetic alizarin was initially produced from the coal tar, because of its aromatic structure (oils - petroleums have mostly aliphatic structure). But, the process of extraction of alizarin from Madder is still alive, if I am not wrong, at Winsor & Newton factory. Actually, I experimented the extraction of dyes (mostly alizarine, according to some papers) from Madder about six months ago, using Soxhlet apparatus and methanol as the extractant. It worked rather well, but I've never finished these experiments.

[ViolinLove20]

The varnishing process is so exciting! I love watching color and textutre develope, and actually trying something rather than doing research or method collection is quite rewarding.

I'm alternating the clear/yellow varnish with glaze color coats. So far I've done 3 varnish coats and 3 color coats. I'm tempted to go darker in color, but I've heard that you should stop before you reach that 'dark color you have in mind'. I'll try finishing with a few clear coats then polish.

[MikeC]

It's looking good !  

[DGV]

Colour looks good. But in the second image, the grain seems to have disappeared!

[ctanzio]

Notice how the grain becomes more obscured as you add more color layers. At some point, you could have just painted the violin, then added a few layers of clear varnish for the gloss.

This is the essential challenge in wood finishing: How to enhance the grain contrast while shading the color.

[fiddlecollector]

 

." Alizarin is organic."

 

88,

Madder colors are organically derived.  Alizarin is the in-organic chemically derived imitation of one of the colorants in madder root.

Joe

 

 

Joe Alizarin is alizarin ,its either naturally occuring or made synthetically, they are both chemically the same,the synthetic derived version obviously is cheaper  .Alizarin is an organic molecule.

[ViolinLove20]

DGV and ct,

I've noticed the grain disappearing after my last glaze/color coat. In real life the grain is much more visable, but still not as accentuated as I may have liked. I took really quick pictures using my phone...not the best clarity for sure. I think I'll either do less glaze coats next time, or try to make the coats thinner.

[joerobson]

Joe Alizarin is alizarin ,its either naturally occuring or made synthetically, they are both chemically the same,the synthetic derived version obviously is cheaper  .Alizarin is an organic molecule.

The cook thanks each of you!

on we go,

Joe

[FiddleDoug]

DGV and ct,

I've noticed the grain disappearing after my last glaze/color coat. In real life the grain is much more visable, but still not as accentuated as I may have liked. I took really quick pictures using my phone...not the best clarity for sure. I think I'll either do less glaze coats next time, or try to make the coats thinner.

Your problem is that your mixture of linseed oil and paint pigment is nothing more than thinly colored paint. The more coats of this that you apply, the more you'll loose the grain. I'm not an expert on this, but I think that you really need to go with transparent colors in the varnish, rather than opaque glazes.

[MikeC]

glazes can have some opaqueness.  Lake pigments are better and nano oxides.   they are much more transparent and yet still give good color.  

[ViolinLove20]

So what I should do is color the varnish, not do a glaze?

[Craig Tucker]

DGV and ct,

I've noticed the grain disappearing after my last glaze/color coat. In real life the grain is much more visable, but still not as accentuated as I may have liked. I took really quick pictures using my phone...not the best clarity for sure. I think I'll either do less glaze coats next time, or try to make the coats thinner.

Yes, I'm going with fiddleDoug on this one.

I use only high quality TRANSPARENT colors, and since I use oil varnish, I tend to use oil colors. I say high quality because Windsor Newton, as an example labels their oil colors as transparent or not. And their tube oil colors always have the pigments or tints ground well, and that seems to be important. Lay the color out beforehand and spread it out (a small amount) first to see if it actually is transparent.

And I will mix my colors in with the oil varnish AND layer on coats of pure transparent oil pigments (directly from the tube) in different areas, and for the color in general.

Youre headed down the correct path as far as I'm concerned - as what you're doing is very much like what I was doing as I plowed through the "varnish" dilemma... (evolving a method that I liked, that is)

 

Varnish is, in my opinion, one of the areas where many violin makers have methods that are held close to the vest - which I completely understand, as, they want their violins to appear as their own violins, and all of the methods ARE actually all out there, somewhere, but you will have to wade through some great amount of words to get them.

But, as I say  - you seem to be on the absolutely right track thus far.

It took me to about violin #20, before I came to my final workable methods.

I'll see if I can find one of my old varnish posts and re post it.

 

Good work, VolinLove20!

You're correct though, you have to work while, or as you read and theorize, or you'll never get anywhere, and it looks like you are simply plowing ahead. I have no doubt that you'll evolve your own varnish system that will be both great, and your entirely own ...

Please keep posting your results here, as this type of thread is sort-of  scarce anymore...

I love it!

 

ct