Premade Oil Varnish/Colors

[ViolinLove20]

The Old Wood products are very expensive to use. Joe Robson's products are reasonably priced if you insist on real violin varnish. Personally I would not use polyurethane to finish a violin. Instead I wood use Ace Spar Oil Varnish available inexpensively at Ace Hardware stores. Buy a small can and start experimenting on small scraps of wood. You can mix small amounts of artist oil colors in the tube to make a colored varnish. I have experimented with Ace's product and it is a good place to start to get a feel for mixing pigment into varnish and I think it will dry on it's own without having to build a UV box. Just another thought.

Spar varnish, I feel like I've read that most people don't like it, but of course, I should find out for myself before writing it off.

[Guest]

Spar varnish, I feel like I've read that most people don't like it, but of course, I should find out for myself before writing it off.

Start by reading through this thread...cheers.

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/319851-confessions-of-a-varnish-whoor/

[ViolinLove20]

Start by reading through this thread...cheers.http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/319851-confessions-of-a-varnish-whoor/

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen this thread yet.

[ViolinLove20]

Yet another question:

For example, if you're oil varnishing a violin's back, is there a certain pattern in which you brush on the varnish?

Also,

What/how/why/when do you rub down varnish?

[ctanzio]

My bad. I meant to type "satin finish polyurethane" but it came out "stain" instead of "satin". Experiment with gloss finishes too and go with what looks good to you.

The "spar varnish" suggestion is a good one provided the varnish is actually marine-grade varnish and not a company just using the name "spar" for marketing purposes. High quality marine grade varnish is resistant to UV light and so resists yellowing over time, and it is flexible so it makes it less likely to flake, spall or crackle due to wood movement. I haven't used spar varnish in a long time so I cannot enumerate its downsides.

One thing I have on my list of things "to-try" is water-based polyurethanes. These things dry crystal clear and are highly resistant to yellowing. The colored versions have a large selection and seem to dry more transparent than pigmented oil varnishes. Of course, cleanup is a snap! I am not sure how the surface would hold up under the stress of handling a violin. I also wonder about moisture resistance, like sweat.

[David Burgess]

Thanks em! I know for sure that one day I will make varnishes on my own, but being only 16 years old and restricted by parents(for good reason) from messing with chemicals or mixtures like creating a varnish for safety, I think I premade is my only option.

There's always the danger of trying out a varnish formula or idea, winding up with methamphetamine, and spending the next 15 years in jail.

 

Just teasin' ya. You sound like a pretty smart person.

[ViolinLove20]

My bad. I meant to type "satin finish polyurethane" but it came out "stain" instead of "satin". Experiment with gloss finishes too and go with what looks good to you.The "spar varnish" suggestion is a good one provided the varnish is actually marine-grade varnish and not a company just using the name "spar" for marketing purposes. High quality marine grade varnish is resistant to UV light and so resists yellowing over time, and it is flexible so it makes it less likely to flake, spall or crackle due to wood movement. I haven't used spar varnish in a long time so I cannot enumerate its downsides.One thing I have on my list of things "to-try" is water-based polyurethanes. These things dry crystal clear and are highly resistant to yellowing. The colored versions have a large selection and seem to dry more transparent than pigmented oil varnishes. Of course, cleanup is a snap! I am not sure how the surface would hold up under the stress of handling a violin. I also wonder about moisture resistance, like sweat.

Ah. I see. Well this thread and the endless pages of information on this fourum have left my head swirling with tons of information, but a few new plans of action! Still a few things in confused about:

When and how do you rub out a varnish?

On a violin back (for example) can you just put the varnish on however, or is there a way to apply varnish so no strokes are seen?

Can you hand apply varnish?

(Most embarrassing) what are lake pigments? Lake colors? I'm confused.

I believe that is all for now.

[ViolinLove20]

There's always the danger of trying out a varnish formula or idea, winding up with methamphetamine, and spending the next 15 years in jail.

 

Just teasin' ya. You sound like a pretty smart person.

Haha, thanks. And I think being confused is okay for me about certain things, I'm only 16, and have a whole lifetime to explore and investigate varnish ahead of me. It wouldn't be fun at all if there were no secrets or info left to be found.

[James M. Jones]

Ah. I see. Well this thread and the endless pages of information on this fourum have left my head swirling with tons of information, but a few new plans of action! Still a few things in confused about:

When and how do you rub out a varnish?

On a violin back (for example) can you just put the varnish on however, or is there a way to apply varnish so no strokes are seen?

Can you hand apply varnish?

(Most embarrassing) what are lake pigments? Lake colors? I'm confused.

I believe that is all for now.

Hand application is doable a lot of people prefer it , just like in the video you saw from oldwood .Never used old wood ...a lot of good maker do. I,ve had good success with Joe Robsens Violin Varnish. Lakes are like powder made from some dye plants , they soak the die ..roots or berries , mix with water and some chemicals,  generally lye and alum  .....the alum in the mix attaches chemically to the dye and they get heavy, fall down to the bottom of the jar. This is then dried out, ground fine, and added to varnish for color .  .Rub out as often as you need to, and as little as possible, but wait till it has set up good . .

[ctanzio]

- Rubbing out a finish occurs after the last coat has thoroughly cured and hardened.

If you used a satin finish varnish, then it is as simple as a fine quality 0000 steel wool + soapy water lubricant in a circular motion with very light pressure.

If you used a gloss finish, it is more involved. Best to research some techniques via an online video.

- I used a "wiping" mixture for varnishes. This is 1 part solvent, like mineral spirits, to 1 part varnish. Brush on lightly with a soft bristle brush and wipe off excess. Or just wipe it on by dipping a lint free cloth in the varnish. I've never had brush marks with this method but it might take several coats to get the varnish depth you want.

- There are posts on this forum where varnish is applied thickly by hand. I've never done it that way. Sounds like you have a research project. >grin<

- A lake pigment is a name given to a method to extract a color from an organic material. Google will be more informative here.

[ViolinLove20]

Thanks for the clarification, James and Ctanzio. That gives me a good enough idea of what to do further research on.

[MikeC]

ah I see,  forget what I said earlier about making your own varnish.    The shellac makes an ok ground though.  Gives a nice golden undertone.  Even Darnton recommended it.    

[captainhook]

Forget the gelatin and dichromate. Go straight to thin shellac, 2 or 3 coats. Long term stability of polyurethane is quite variable, depending on the exact formulation, so I only use it on furniture. Nothing wrong with linseed oil, it's been proven for centuries. If you want to try a hardware store product, Tru-Oil is linseed based and well-tested. Another good choice is Formby's (or Ace) Tung Oil Finish. Mix in tube oil colors and you are set. Spar varnish formulations have changed in recent years and may or may not be sufficiently stable. It is generally expected that spar varnish will be re-applied every few years.

[ViolinLove20]

Forget the gelatin and dichromate. Go straight to thin shellac, 2 or 3 coats. Long term stability of polyurethane is quite variable, depending on the exact formulation, so I only use it on furniture. Nothing wrong with linseed oil, it's been proven for centuries. If you want to try a hardware store product, Tru-Oil is linseed based and well-tested. Another good choice is Formby's (or Ace) Tung Oil Finish. Mix in tube oil colors and you are set. Spar varnish formulations have changed in recent years and may or may not be sufficiently stable. It is generally expected that spar varnish will be re-applied every few years.

Oooooooo. I like the sound of this option as well.

I'm going to try:

I.V. standard oil varnish (I believe its repackaged joha?)

Tru-oil or tung + oil paint colors

Maybe eventualy joes varnish

Darnton

What about holtier varnish?

If I am still curious after those (that's already pretty much a 99% yes) then I'll try:

The polyurethane option

The spar varnish option

Oldwood system

[ViolinLove20]

Even though I have that list of ideas, if anyone has any other pieces of advice or ideas, I'd love to hear them. I'm an aspiring knowledge hoarder.

[D. Piolle]

I thought about simple and safe recipe of clear varnish that works and is not too bad to begin with.

No cooking needed...

You take:

In in a jam jar

-100 ml of spirit of turpentine.

Put approximately

- 20 grams of mastic resin

Close the jar

Let it dissolve completely, you maybe need to shake the well closed jar.

Then put :

-10 grams of dammar resin.

And proceed the same way.

You can replace dammar by dark colophony.

Now when all is melted, you add approx. :

- 10 ml of linseed oil

and mix it all well.

It takes several days for each resin to dissolve.

It's best used in a warm environment, otherwise it's hard to brush, apply thin coats.

Friendly, Dave.

[Michael.N.]

I've tried the following on an off cut, seems perferctly fine but gives very little colour.

 

http://www.simonsartsupplies.com/lefranc-bourgeois-copal-picture-varnish/

[Guest]

OP

Do you have an actual instrument that you are trying to varnish?...or are you just going to start practicing on scrap wood to get a feel for it? I think you will find that a spruce top to be the most challenging part. So read up on how to seal the spruce before adding colored varnish or you will you get an uneven blotchy finish. Maple is more forgiving.

[ViolinLove20]

I thought about simple and safe recipe of clear varnish that works and is not too bad to begin with.

No cooking needed...

You take:

In in a jam jar

-100 ml of spirit of turpentine.

Put approximately

- 20 grams of mastic resin

Close the jar

Let it dissolve completely, you maybe need to shake the well closed jar.

Then put :

-10 grams of dammar resin.

And proceed the same way.

You can replace dammar by dark colophony.

Now when all is melted, you add approx. :

- 10 ml of linseed oil

and mix it all well.

It takes several days for each resin to dissolve.

It's best used in a warm environment, otherwise it's hard to brush, apply thin coats.

Friendly, Dave.

Yay, something I can make! And how would I color this varnish?

[ViolinLove20]

I've tried the following on an off cut, seems perferctly fine but gives very little colour.

 

http://www.simonsartsupplies.com/lefranc-bourgeois-copal-picture-varnish/

Hmmmmm I think I've seen it reccomended before, I won't write it off until I've used it myself. Thanks.

[ViolinLove20]

OPDo you have an actual instrument that you are trying to varnish?...or are you just going to start practicing on scrap wood to get a feel for it? I think you will find that a spruce top to be the most challenging part. So read up on how to seal the spruce before adding colored varnish or you will you get an uneven blotchy finish. Maple is more forgiving.

I have an cheap violin that has undergone a few trials of spirit varnish. I am thinking about using it as a trial violin for each method I listed, so I can get a feel for it.

[ViolinLove20]

As I try these methods, would you guys want to see pictures of the results?

[D. Piolle]

Yes , upload pictures if you find time to do it, we 'd be pleased to see your improvements.

 

Couloring the Mastic/Dammar varnish... I don " t really know. Maybe someone has an Idea. It ' s a very good clear varnish to start with.

I used it for clear coats, the first coats for exemple.

 

If I get time I will upload a picture of a violin with that clear coats on.

 

I talk to you soon, Dave.

[ViolinLove20]

Yes , upload pictures if you find time to do it, we 'd be pleased to see your improvements.

 

Couloring the Mastic/Dammar varnish... I don " t really know. Maybe someone has an Idea. It ' s a very good clear varnish to start with.

I used it for clear coats, the first coats for exemple.

 

If I get time I will upload a picture of a violin with that clear coats on.

 

I talk to you soon, Dave.

That'd be great, Dave!

New question:

What book would be the most helpful to me when oil varnishing a violin? Strobel? Prier? Others?

[ViolinLove20]

Oh goodness, Christian Bayon's work is beautiful beyond compare!