Tarisio Chanot 37cm not for long...

[Michael Appleman]

http://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2198061056&cpid=3266445312&filter_key=1762afcd48601fe4b9610366b61342a4

 

Getting back to the raison d'être of this forum, here's an interesting case. It looks to me that someone was starting to reduce a 37cm Maggini model Chanot by sawing around the inner line of purfling. I'm not quite sure what to think of this. Papa Chanot's are fine instruments, and one of those "bargains" I often advise friends to look for, as they don't fetch prices as high as Vuillaumes, nor even, often, Gand Père or Bernardel Père, but I feel they have a similar quality level. I usually find that Maggini models by all of these top french makers have very interesting sound qualities, often similar to their rare Del Gesu models. I also have noticed that the long body lengths (often with fairly normal stops) are a huge turn-off, and very few players are willing to put up with it. 

 

Among my "practice project" fiddles is a 37cm Maggini model that looks like it was made by one of Bernardel Père's assistants, or according to his "take" on the Maggini model in any case, but it has no signature, stamps or other tell-tale signs. I do intend to practice some crack repair/retouching on this violin plus a neck reset. Even in its "weakened" state, with several badly repaired cracks and a very low neck projection, this violin sounds very good, and I have to admit, I'm a little tempted to "cut it down." Have any folks here on MN ever done this sort of thing?

 

Just an aside, many years ago (mid 1973's) I saw an A&H Amati go through Sotheby's that had been enlarged with the addition of a second line of purfling. The violin was supposedly ex-Vieuxtemps, and the work was purported to have been done by Lupot, I believe. Anyone seen that fiddle since?

[Blank face]

It's a sad feeling to watch this concision.

I had a good 18th century Mittenwald violin, what is usually selling for something near 10 K, but just some 5 or 6 mm too long.

I wondered a while to cut it down to the usual "trade" length.

But in respect to the instrument, this can't be an option IMO.

[Kev Chanot]

I once had one of my 3x great grandfather Georges' Maggini copies.It was very nicely made,but it was 14 1/2" long.Not a popular size,except maybe as a small viola?

I did sell this instrument,but I sometimes wish I had kept it....

[Michael Appleman]

I did use that Maggini copy I mentioned as a viola for awhile, and it worked quite well, better than some 38cm violas I've played. After I finally picked up a real viola (I had never played viola in a concert, but I was filling in viola parts for my chamber music students more and more) I strung it up as a violin for the first time in some 20 years, and realized what a good sounding violin it is! 

 

I do find this "cut job" on this Chanot almost criminal, but maybe if I were to see it finished cleanly, and the violin getting regular use by a good player rather than sitting on a shelf not being played, I might change my mind. Yes, there's that unpleasant "mercantile" element, cutting it down to sell it easier, but on another level, seeing a fine violin not being played is also a shame.

[Roger Hargrave]

I did use that Maggini copy I mentioned as a viola for awhile, and it worked quite well, better than some 38cm violas I've played. After I finally picked up a real viola (I had never played viola in a concert, but I was filling in viola parts for my chamber music students more and more) I strung it up as a violin for the first time in some 20 years, and realized what a good sounding violin it is! 

 

I do find this "cut job" on this Chanot almost criminal, but maybe if I were to see it finished cleanly, and the violin getting regular use by a good player rather than sitting on a shelf not being played, I might change my mind. Yes, there's that unpleasant "mercantile" element, cutting it down to sell it easier, but on another level, seeing a fine violin not being played is also a shame.

 

With each generation getting bigger, someone might be happy to play these larger instruments one day, assuming that any of them are still around. The same question has applied to many violas and cellos. Most of the larger classical cellos were cut down in the 19th century. The magnificent 'Servais' Strad cello of 1701 was only rescued from this fate by the fact that Servais was a rather large man. While making the poster for the Strad magazine I witnessed Anner Bylsma playing the Servais. I asked him if the size was a hindrance. He said something like, "..The only hindrance is the fact that I don't own it. 

 

These days, with the knowledge that we now have about the damage that was, (and still is being) done to so many fine violins, violas and cellos, you really would think that we have learned. Unfortunately, it seems that capitalism in its most unacceptable form still rules

[Carl Stross]

 

With each generation getting bigger, someone might be happy to play these larger instruments one day, assuming that any of them are still around.  

 

 

Absolutely. Some years ago, I visited a WWI museum with my son, around 9 y/o at the time. They had piles of old uniforms for sale and some would not fit the child. We are much bigger than we used to be and on violin it shows : 20 y/o, both male and female often have problems articulating cleanly for plain lack of space between fingers. On viola and cello, large hands are a bonus but on violin not really.  To keep up with our size increase and have the same feel of the instrument as somebody 120 years ago we need violins 20% larger. 

[Michael Appleman]

 

With each generation getting bigger, someone might be happy to play these larger instruments one day, assuming that any of them are still around. ... Unfortunately, it seems that capitalism in its most unacceptable form still rules

 

Roger, I personally agree with you. I'm about 6ft tall (1m82), I feel just fine playing a Maggini model, my favourite loaner was a long Strad, and my favourite fiddle for concerts these days is a 364mm Buchstetter. I know plenty of violists who are 5'8'' or shorter who play big violas without batting an eyelid. On the other hand, I only personally know of two violinists who willingly bought Maggini model violins, neither of whom are particularly tall, but both of whom felt they were getting a bargain for sound (one a Vuillaume, the other a Gand Père). The other few hundred violinists I know wouldn't go near an oversize fiddle.

 

Is it just the evils of capitalism? Maybe it is, in the form of "shooting down" other people's sales of oversize fiddles, to the point that most violinists think of over-sized fiddles the way they do about back sound post cracks. 

[Blank face]

both male and female often have problems articulating cleanly for plain lack of space between fingers. On viola and cello, large hands are a bonus but on violin not really.  To keep up with our size increase and have the same feel of the instrument as somebody 120 years ago we need violins 20% larger. 

 

Isn't this a question of "playable string length". not of the body size?

I'm wondering, if a majority of players would feel the difference between a 35,5 cm and 36,5 cm body during a blind test (yes, blind testing again )

[Will L]

"LOB: 37.0 cm (but not for long)"   —Tarisio, from the listing in the OP

 

Someone at Tarisio has a sense of humor.

[Carl Stross]

Isn't this a question of "playable string length". not of the body size?

I'm wondering, if a majority of players would feel the difference between a 35,5 cm and 36,5 cm body during a blind test (yes, blind testing again )

 

That's the most obvious aspect but there are a few others. 

I don't know what "majority of players" means but somebody astute enough to pay attention to half tones in first half position would figure it out immediately. And would adapt about as quickly.

[Blank face]

Majority would mean "more than by chance", as well known .

But if neck's length and width, table stop etc. are the same, I'm wondering how it should be possible to figure it out by halftones or positions?

[fiddlecollector]

Thats criminal, looks recently done with a rough saw blade.

[Carl Stross]

Majority would mean "more than by chance", as well known .

But if neck's length and width, table stop etc. are the same, I'm wondering how it should be possible to figure it out by halftones or positions?

 

It's the "players" part which confuses me. What sort of players ? Surely you don't mean the ones who can actually hear that the 1st B on A is actually

5 different things depending on what's after or before.  The 1st half position is very tricky intonation-wise : a good player will feel immediately he deals

with a longer string.

[duane88]

"LOB: 37.0 cm (but not for long)"   —Tarisio, from the listing in the OP

 

Someone at Tarisio has a sense of humor.

Ethan...you bad boy!

 

I like the lobotomized fiddle, and perhaps my favorite was the "School of Van Gogh".

 

I had to deal with a cut down fiddle recently, and it was a pain to show the owner where and how. I fondly remember a large Ceruti that isn't so large anymore.

 

I hate to say it, but this is one area where the violin trade vs museum conservationist should consider the museum point more strongly.

[Carl Stross]

Thats criminal, looks recently done with a rough saw blade.

 

Not if it's done by the Owner by Virtue of Ownership. Then it is only idiotic. :)

[mmmm]

Isn't this a question of "playable string length". not of the body size?

I'm wondering, if a majority of players would feel the difference between a 35,5 cm and 36,5 cm body during a blind test (yes, blind testing again )

 

If they didn't at first, they would notice if they played the larger violin for extended periods of time.  I have an 362mm french violin and it's one of the best sounding violins I've played...but no matter what I do, it tires out my hand after an hour.  Whereas I can go 8 hours on my 351mm del gesu copy and not feel the burn.  I'm 5' 7".  

[Blank face]

a good player will feel immediately he deals

with a longer string.

 

Once more: My point was, that the string length is completely independend from the body's length; you can have a long ody size with short stops and a short body with long playing string length.

A 365 mm LOB with the "usual" 130:195 stop, maybe the tailgut or tailpiece 10 mm longer as usual, would have the same string length as a shorter body; or won't it?

 

If they didn't at first, they would notice if they played the larger violin for extended periods of time.  I have an 362mm french violin and it's one of the best sounding violins I've played...but no matter what I do, it tires out my hand after an hour.  Whereas I can go 8 hours on my 351mm del gesu copy and not feel the burn.  I'm 5' 7".  

 

I can only speculate, that it has something to do with "balance" between head (of the violin) and body; but viola players are supposed to have the same feeling, have they?

I'm not dogmatic or sure about this point, just wondering.

When Carl and Roger are mentioning, that the body sizes of humans are bigger as 200 years ago, why aren't the violins from this time , let's say, 34 cm?

[duane88]

If the string length is normal it isn't a problem until you shift into the upper positions. Having to stretch your thumb another 15mm to remain in contact so that you can get back down is tiring and can cause injury. You might not notice it in first position, but most fiddlers as opposed to violinists, won't pay the price. 

 

I like the larger instruments for: fiddle players and 5 string fiddles. 

 

I have noticed that a larger percentage of violins at the auction seem to be 360 or above these days.

 

I sold a large violin to a friend, 364ish. She's a violist and isn't sure what all the fuss around playing a large violin is all about. She has no problems with it...

[duane88]

 

When Carl and Roger are mentioning, that the body sizes of humans are bigger as 200 years ago, why aren't the violins from this time , let's say, 34 cm?

 

 

Early Amatis and some Brescian violin are.

[Blank face]

Early Amatis and some Brescian violin are.

1570-1600 = more than 400 years. Paganini  = start of "modern" technique ca. 1820-40, nearly 180-200 years. Carl spoke about WW I = 100 years.

I don't want to play a fool's game, but I think, you know what I mean.

 

There can be a large price discrepance between a 358 mm and a 361 mm violin, that's what is confusing me. It can't be rational and also not correspondend with playing comfort.

 

I'm not a "long-session" soloist and have to accept what you're saying; but the soloists I spoke to were always talking about the total string stop, when it comes to playing comfort, not about body sizes.

[Omobono]

Interesting discussion in general about adjusting to slight variation between instruments.

I have one fiddle with a quite long neck that I am comfortable with and accustomed to but others might find awkward at first.

Adjusting to another fiddle is pretty much instantaneous for anyone with a good ear intonation wise, though it might take longer to fully explore its tonal qualities.

Variations in bridge angles, string action, and even fingerboards. is all part and parcel of a string player's craft.

[Grandini]

The limit for string length on a violin used to be the gut E, it was already past its reliable limit.  That limitation doesn't apply with steel so there's no practical reason not to have a bigger violin with a longer stop length, if they sound good...

[Michael Appleman]

Funny to talk about limits to stop length. There is a nice Joseph filius in the upcoming Vichy sale ca. 1705 with a body stop of 200mm. Long Strads I've played were often beyond 198mm, and Alessandro Gaglianos also get down to 200mm+. The one Rogeri Maggini copy I've played also is in the high 190's. I think Bergonzi's tend to have long stops as well. Someone must have thought a long stop was good for something at the time, despite violinists being shorter!

[Terrini]

Roger, I personally agree with you. I'm about 6ft tall (1m82), I feel just fine playing a Maggini model, my favourite loaner was a long Strad, and my favourite fiddle for concerts these days is a 364mm Buchstetter. I know plenty of violists who are 5'8'' or shorter who play big violas without batting an eyelid. On the other hand, I only personally know of two violinists who willingly bought Maggini model violins, neither of whom are particularly tall, but both of whom felt they were getting a bargain for sound (one a Vuillaume, the other a Gand Père). The other few hundred violinists I know wouldn't go near an oversize fiddle.

 

Is it just the evils of capitalism? Maybe it is, in the form of "shooting down" other people's sales of oversize fiddles, to the point that most violinists think of over-sized fiddles the way they do about back sound post cracks.

I attend concert in Toronto quite often (the only few places that has very good orchestra in Canada). The concertmaster is about 6ft4 ... My friend and I just keep a smile on every time when a shorter guest soloist or conductor come (e.g Hilary Khan or even their director, Peter Oundjian ), as they would be at the same height, one sitting and one standing...

Anyways, I think he is playing a violin by Samuel Zygmuntowicz right now, he used to have a del Gesù as loaner. Not sure if he has asked to make it slightly bigger or not (although I doubt he would).

[Rick Hyslop]

Interesting discussion in general about adjusting to slight variation between instruments.

I have one fiddle with a quite long neck that I am comfortable with and accustomed to but others might find awkward at first.

Adjusting to another fiddle is pretty much instantaneous for anyone with a good ear intonation wise, though it might take longer to fully explore its tonal qualities.

Variations in bridge angles, string action, and even fingerboards. is all part and parcel of a string player's craft.

 

I very much agree with these thoughts.

 

r.