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redbrown

French JTL Labels

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Hi everyone,

This old violin I have is French I think, but I was hoping someone can comment about the labels used by the JTL Company. Can one put a date on the instruments made with these two labels and what price range they fall in???

I would imagine they vary in price greatly and being factory made there ok for students? I see some of the better ones going for $2 - $4k. I strung this one up the other day and, Wow...quite a powerful, impressive sound from this old fiddle. The E string is clear and bright all the way up, amazing:) would this one I have be worth $500 U.S.??

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/Chateau14/JTL/1F5621CD-1397-4BD6-84EC-E3C6580816C5_zpsaclutk0z.jpg

Thanks

imagejpg1_zps28668e39.jpg

imagejpg1_zps7f2dcbd2.jpg

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I missed you! Is this one you are repairing for resale? How is your other French violin coming along?

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Hi Rue, how are you! No repairs on this one...it's all good but there is possibly a surface hairline crack on the belly, lower left bout but does not go all the way through. At least looking in with a mirror it appears fine and feels stable. I don't want to open it up because I think it's just in the grain, antiquing possibly:)

The other violin is still under the scope so to speak, and no rush here. He also needs to bush a couple peg holes so I'm told.

I was wanting to sell this JTL violin but not sure what it's worth or when it was made. It looks to be in not bad condition, origanal varnish, has 4 corner bocks...nothing special but just curious:) I'm leaning toward c1900, what's your guess?

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Does look like turn of the century to me too.  Looks like French, and lower end at that.  I'm not to good on the French side of things, but I'm thinking this is what some guys are referring to as "Caussin"? (Spelling?).  I characterize this with cruder work, darker varnish and that plain kinda grainy looking wood.  Not sure if I'm close, but I'l like one of our french kowledgeble guys to chime in.  jeff  ps, you really ought to think about doing something with that fingerboard fit and the potential crack

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Does look like turn of the century to me too.  Looks like French, and lower end at that.  I'm not to good on the French side of things, but I'm thinking this is what some guys are referring to as "Caussin"? (Spelling?).  I characterize this with cruder work, darker varnish and that plain kinda grainy looking wood.  Not sure if I'm close, but I'l like one of our french kowledgeble guys to chime in.  jeff  ps, you really ought to think about doing something with that fingerboard fit and the potential crack

Thank you guys for your help. Yah, Jeff the fingerboard really should be changed as it has a crack near the nut. I guess someone forced it and broke at the thinnest point, it's a mess. Also, the belly crack maybe caused by a poorly set chin rest? Mmmmm....what to do:)

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I was wondering about what this violin is...because there is a Ludovicus Ricolazi listed on page 8, page 21 as model #16 for 30 fr...but on my label the spelling is Ricozali. Jeff is this what you meant by "spelling"?

http://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/thibouville1912.htm

According to page 3, there seems to be concern about others using the THIBOUVILLE name. The Lyre with the violin in front as their logo seems different and nowhere does it say JTL as per the warning on page 3.

Sorry if this has been discussed before but I just wanted to learn more about my so called mystery:)

imagejpg1_zps8d44da8d.jpg

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Good idea Brad, and that is what I'll do:)

But the fingerboard I may change. I have a couple old smashed fiddles for parts from China with ebony fingerboards in good condition.

Doesn't matter, if I sell the violin I'll mention any flaws but I'm sure someone just starting to play would be happy with it's present condition anyway.

Reminds me of that car protection commercial where a guy is getting gas with his newly purchased car when someone walks by and says...

" Hey this looks like my old car, see here? I was driving down the road when a deer run right out in front of me. I threw it in reverse and the transmission come flying right out of the car. I hit the ditch and rolled right over on to the roof...totaled the car. Boy, they did a good job of fixing it." lol,

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I would say this is pre-1900, definitely sold by JTL and probably made by them. I don't think anyone really knows to what extent they "out-sourced", particularly in the late 1800s.

Unfortunately Roland Terrier's site doesn't have any JTL catalogues between 1878 and 1901, and this is a period in which the JTL "style" evolved massively.

I see that the Ricolazi label was alive and well in 1901, but the pricing suggests something rather better than this violin, which has scratched purfling, a very basic scroll, and plain maple or "platane" more in keeping with a Mi-Fin or Medio Fino. By 1901, you would expect something selling for more than 3 times the price of a Medio Fino to have proper purfling, highly flamed wood, crisp carving, flat scroll eyes etc etc ...

So I would guess that this is an earlier incarnation of this trade name, maybe dating from about 1880-85.

It's by no means unusual to see a particular trade label cropping up in two violins which bear no resemblance to each other in model or construction.

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Thank you for this perfect explanation. It's a great sounding violin, very loud if I could say that:) The total weight all strung up but no chin rest is 463 grams, is that heavy or on the normal side? I never touched the sound post and it looks old but I did cut a bridge to fit and I'm just amazed at how it vibrates, or for a better word how it resonates so wonderfully. The sound carries out quit equally on all the strings:) I'll leave good enough alone but thank you again for for chiming in Martin, have a great weekend!

I would say this is pre-1900, definitely sold by JTL and probably made by them. I don't think anyone really knows to what extent they "out-sourced", particularly in the late 1800s.

Unfortunately Roland Terrier's site doesn't have any JTL catalogues between 1878 and 1901, and this is a period in which the JTL "style" evolved massively.

I see that the Ricolazi label was alive and well in 1901, but the pricing suggests something rather better than this violin, which has scratched purfling, a very basic scroll, and plain maple or "platane" more in keeping with a Mi-Fin or Medio Fino. By 1901, you would expect something selling for more than 3 times the price of a Medio Fino to have proper purfling, highly flamed wood, crisp carving, flat scroll eyes etc etc ...

So I would guess that this is an earlier incarnation of this trade name, maybe dating from about 1880-85.

It's by no means unusual to see a particular trade label cropping up in two violins which bear no resemblance to each other in model or construction.

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14 hours ago, BassClef said:

Thank you. Were there specific labels associated with the higher quality JTL violins that apprentices were rumored to graduate to upon completion of a fine MF? I would be interested in a chart of all of he JTL labels and how they changed over time, and also a chart ordering the various JTL labels by quality. 

If this exists or if someone can write one up quickly it would be most helpful, thanks!

Where did you apprentice?

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I am adding this content from an unrelated thread to this one because the topic is on point.

I am interested in learning about the history of Violins produced bearing an original JTL-produced label.

I own a Michael Ange-Garini as well as a Celebre Vosgien 1/8 violin (Mirecourt 1/4). What other labels did JTL produce and which were generally better or worse quality?

5 hours ago, martin swan said:

This is a HUGE subject.

In essence, there is little consistency in the labelling of JTL instruments - the same label can be found in instruments with wildly differing workmanship and quality of sound. This is true from 1/4 size Medio-Finos through to Geronimo Grandinis, though the higher up the price range you go the more consistent the labelling becomes. One Alfred Acoulon looks very much like another.

For some models, varnish treatment or wood choice is very consistent, but Medio Finos can be red, brown, yellow, everything in between, one-piece back, two-piece back. The only truly common factors are the plain wood (generally plane), etched purfling, and pressed arching.

For a full history of JTL labels, you can do worse than to commit to memory the several thousand pages of JTL catalogues on Roland Terrier's site : http://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/documentation.htm#Documentation

 

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Here’s a list from Wikipedia regarding the JTL violin labels. Did JTL pump out 1/4 sized violins with each and every one of these many labels?

——————

List of names used in Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy trade instruments.[4]

  • Alfred Acoulon
  • Joseph Aubrey
  • Geronimo Barnabetti
  • Emile Blondelet
  • Brenton
  • Charles Buthod
  • Compagnon
  • Nicolas Duchêne
  • Médio-Fino
  • Louis Fricot
  • Michel Ange Garini
  • Mansuy
  • Salzard
  • Thiéry
  • Le célèbre vosgien

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