MikeC Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 So when varnishing what works better? Applying it thick like that or thinning it and appling multiple very thin layers? Does it make much difference one way or the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarloBartolini Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Since I work with so many different finishing materials (epoxies, poly, oil, spirit, etc.) each material asks for a different application method, so I enjoy adapting to it instead of adapting the material to my preference, I am just finishing varnishing a violin with Joe's thick varnishes without thinning and I really like it, I can apply very thin coats without any brush marks, it is the only technique I know that allows me to apply a very large amount of color in a single very thin layer with lots of control, and it is fun. Historically it is correct as it was a technique used in Italy at the time in several fields. Thinning, depending on the thinner you may add unpredictable qualities to the film, but I don't know enough about the long term effects of these to comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallie Posted October 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Since I work with so many different finishing materials (epoxies, poly, oil, spirit, etc.) each material asks for a different application method, so I enjoy adapting to it instead of adapting the material to my preference, I am just finishing varnishing a violin with Joe's thick varnishes without thinning and I really like it, I can apply very thin coats without any brush marks, it is the only technique I know that allows me to apply a very large amount of color in a single very thin layer with lots of control, and it is fun. Historically it is correct as it was a technique used in Italy at the time in several fields. Thinning, depending on the thinner you may add unpredictable qualities to the film, but I don't know enough about the long term effects of these to comment. Carl, the violin that you mentioned just finishing, are you applying the thick varnish with a brush, or also by hand? So when varnishing what works better? Applying it thick like that or thinning it and appling multiple very thin layers? Does it make much difference one way or the other? Im not sure if it matters either way... The way that I apply the varnish, is I put a little blob here and there, then smear it over the wood, until it is even. By the time it is all evened out, it is a very thin layer. Not sure if there is any difference between using small amount of thick varnish, rather than using larger amounts of thin varnish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarloBartolini Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I am applying as my memory allows from what I learned (and not forgotten) from Joe Robson in his wonderful workshop, I use a thick brush to roughly spread it, than with a small dry brush as Joe posted I tap tap tap tap, I also like to tap with the finger and palm afterwards, depending on the area. I use the same technique for some types of epoxy which are impossible to get a good finish otherwise. Joe's workshop is really worth it, besides being so much fun and the greatest vibe!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 In general several thin layers will be better than one thick one, depending on certain things, but in general that is the case. One thick coat can lead to problems with succeeding coats, if you plan on putting more than that one coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredN Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Thin multiple coats gives you an opportunity to make corrections. Thick coats that puddle along the edge in the C bout become a problem. Also, if you decide to use a brush, for vln or viola, something that will fit around two thirds or a half of the width of the ribs. Thickness of brush is very important- get the thinnest brush possible. You don't want a thick brush that loads up with a lot of varnish that just stays there. Hard to believe but Walmart has the best inst brushes in their Hobby section for very cheap considering the quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim mcavoy Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 double post... sorry Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim mcavoy Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Re: brushes I remember that 60 years ago,, varnish was laid down with a varnish brush.. which looks like a chip brush The bristles tapered from the ferrule to the tip so that the varnish didn't load up and were pricey (kind of) the technique was a thin coat using one side of the brush wetted to 2 /3 up these days, a one inch chip brush is cheap ...36 for $10 +/- for what it's worth Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Swenson Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I am applying as my memory allows from what I learned (and not forgotten) from Joe Robson in his wonderful workshop, I use a thick brush to roughly spread it, than with a small dry brush as Joe posted I tap tap tap tap, I also like to tap with the finger and palm afterwards, depending on the area. I use the same technique for some types of epoxy which are impossible to get a good finish otherwise. Joe's workshop is really worth it, besides being so much fun and the greatest vibe!!!! Speaking of Joe's Varnish Workshop... Joe, Are you planning another? I haven't seen any updates on this lately (as indicated on your website)... inquiring mind want to know.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Swenson Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Kallie, just one of the many methods and the one I used- when your varnish starts to develop a shine indicating you've sealed your ground coats, and the varnish is definitely dry, carefully polish with wet 1200 grit paper to smooth out the surface. Dry wipe then wipe with a barely damp cloth. Your intent is to only remove those little picks, not much else. Klingspor located in Germany makes all grits if you can't find 1200 paper. Any remains from the polishing disappears with the next coat. Repeat if needed after next coat. It is an easy way to get rid of those bumps too small to pick. fred Excellent advice, thank you Fred. Kallie, You can get all the way up to 12000 grit in "Micro Mesh" sanding sheets. Metropolitan Music and International Violin sell it. I use 2400 grit in between coats with the little mineral spirits for a lubricant. Works quite well. Its a cloth "sandpaper" which you can rinsed and reused quite easily especially if you use some lubricant to keep it from getting clogged.. Check out the Google search Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Speaking of Joe's Varnish Workshop... Joe, Are you planning another? I haven't seen any updates on this lately (as indicated on your website)... inquiring mind want to know.. Joe, The varnish workshop will be held from March 21st - 28th in Concord, MA at the Emerson Center for the Arts. Here is some basic info. I will post details on the Makers Forum next week. Would you like to join us? on we go. Joe Violin Varnish Workshop 2015.doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Joe, The varnish workshop will be held from March 21st - 28th in Concord, MA at the Emerson Center for the Arts. Here is some basic info. I will post details on the Makers Forum next week. Would you like to join us? on we go. Joe Joe you are the master at surfing the fine line...kind of always tweaked me how you get away with it but enough time has passed that I now understand how and why. On you go...bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Swenson Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Joe, The varnish workshop will be held from March 21st - 28th in Concord, MA at the Emerson Center for the Arts. Here is some basic info. I will post details on the Makers Forum next week. Would you like to join us? on we go. Joe Simple answer...Yes. But life is always more complicated I have to get approval from my social/business advisor... Thanks for the info. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Joe Swenson, on 24 Oct 2014 - 1:39 PM, said: Simple answer...Yes. But life is always more complicated I have to get approval from my social/business advisor... Thanks for the info. Joe Social / business advisor does that translate as 'wife' ? lol me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Re: brushes I remember that 60 years ago,, varnish was laid down with a varnish brush.. which looks like a chip brush The bristles tapered from the ferrule to the tip so that the varnish didn't load up and were pricey (kind of) the technique was a thin coat using one side of the brush wetted to 2 /3 up these days, a one inch chip brush is cheap ...36 for $10 +/- for what it's worth Jim Jim, Those fine brushes are still available...and still a pleasure to use. But such brushes are suited to a different kind of varnish. Brushing varnish has its best finish off the tip of the brush and left undisturbed. But these varnishes do not respond so well to polishing after they are dry. One can drop the viscosity of a violin varnish to use these brushes, but they will not "feel" like the brushing varnishes. You can hand plane the edge of a maple board with great skill and success....but is will never be like planing a piece of fine ribbon striped Cuban mahogany which cuts like frozen butter. But I digress...on we go, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Swenson Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Social / business advisor does that translate as 'wife' ? lol me too Yes indeed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Social / business advisor does that translate as 'wife' ? lol me too And don't forget Swenson's pet puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Swenson Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 And don't forget Swenson's pet puppy. Actually three dogs... and two cats, and of course my wife, all seem to have some say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Swenson Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Was trying to find a good pic that my wife would approve of (without so much of her in it). Here are the three pups. Diego (top) Sweet Pea (lower left) and new addition, Henry (lower right) who is very camera shy. The other two were too busy chewing their nyl-a-bones to care about posing for a photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael breid Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 I made the Ed Herron-Allen benzoin and pure spirits of wine (Everclear 190 alcohol), but I'm having trouble getting it to layer to a gloss. It seems to soak into the wood (tiger maple). Should I use some Jap drier in my mix? Any info would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide Sora Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 11 hours ago, michael breid said: I made the Ed Herron-Allen benzoin and pure spirits of wine (Everclear 190 alcohol), but I'm having trouble getting it to layer to a gloss. It seems to soak into the wood (tiger maple). Should I use some Jap drier in my mix? Any info would be appreciated. I do not think that the Japan drier can help you, it is used to accelerate the polymerization of oil varnishes, with benzoin and alcohol it would probably have no effect. I think your problem is a too diluted solution, you can try to decrease the alcohol or to seal the wood in advance to limit the absorption. However, alcohol varnishes are generally very diluted, without a sealing coat of some sort I think it will take at least a dozen varnish coats to start seeing a glossy layer. PS I don't know the dilution rate of Ed Herron-Allen benzoin and alcool mix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle duke Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Davide Sora said: PS I don't know the dilution rate of Ed Herron-Allen benzoin and alcool mix The recipe actually says to powder some benzoin into three fingers depth of pure spirits of wine for a few days and then add five or six strands of saffron - with this one can varnish anything glittery gold that will last for years. It is a 1550's Alexi of the Piemont recipe that was debunked by Charles Reade in the Heron-Allen book. I think Reade says it is just a quick drying picture varnish. Heron Allen used Reade's information on varnish and put it in his own book. In other words the varnish chapters are all of Reade's research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide Sora Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 28 minutes ago, uncle duke said: The recipe actually says to powder some benzoin into three fingers depth of pure spirits of wine for a few days and then add five or six strands of saffron - with this one can varnish anything glittery gold that will last for years. It is a 1550's Alexi of the Piemont recipe that was debunked by Charles Reade in the Heron-Allen book. I think Reade says it is just a quick drying picture varnish. Heron Allen used Reade's information on varnish and put it in his own book. In other words the varnish chapters are all of Reade's research. Thanks for the info. It seems unsuitable as a main varnish for a violin, and in fact as I understand it is not the purpose for which it was reported in the book, it seems more like a final varnish to put on top of the actual varnish. I beg to differ with the author of the book that the color given by saffron lasts for years (well maybe just a few years...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctanzio Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 Saffron as a dye for varnish/ground/sealer gives a brilliant yellow color that, sadly, fades within a year from my personal experience. Used as a dye for fabric, the mordants used to fix the dye to the fibers might extend the color fastness, but I never pursued to option for wood working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 Always test a pigment or dye in the medium in which you are going to use it, and preferably do long-term or accelerated aging tests, unless you like unpleasant surprises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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