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Ground systems, another read of Sacconi, and my own scheme


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We'll be glad to look at your results if you ever get any.  

 

Absolutely. 

Let's see you make something and then varnish it...

 or perhaps, just buy a white violin, and take it through this ground/varnish idea (scheme) of yours.

OK?

 

Or is posturing and yakking (I'm sorry, I mean jib-flapping) all we're going to get from reading these posts??

We'll all be happy to look at your results, that is, if you ever actually get any.

Varnish on wood results, please.

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Did I say 'everyone' heh  probably should have said 'professionals' and they're not going to tell you what they use. 

 

The sad aroma of fail sauce.   Don't worry,  denial is the first stage.  

 

 

 

There's only one interesting thing that came out of any of this and that's only because I did a lot of research on making synthetic opal.

I always trade with a stop loss...  it's a smart thing to do.     

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Haven't you idiots treated the wood with nicotine?

 

This belongs to the nightshade family.

 

What is YOUR method for getting silicic acid DEEP into the wood?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Use_as_an_insecticide

 

The psychoactives are simply great!

I use tobacco all the time, I'm steeping some linseed oil in it right now.

 

Otter, perhaps you should post some pics of your friend Angels work. Are any of your ideas on his work?

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The hole law and the profits make sense, no?

Maybe it does to you. And at this point that's about all that matters really. Because from the way you selectively reply, and ignore people, it is clear that you are talking with your ears closed, and that is simply no way to conduct a conversation. Especially when you've had plenty of time to physically develop your ideas into something concrete, and so far all you've managed is posturing.

Stop calling intelligent people idiots, it doesn't do you any favours. Especially when your calling them idiots for not doing something you have never done either. Because that puts you in the same basket as everybody else, so your calling yourself an idiot. And that's not very clever. You thanked me once for not ripping into you. If you keep it up I will. So try making intelligent, civilized conversation, and quit the superiority complex.

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Hi everyone,

I hope it is not to late for this, but I thought I should show my attempted replication of some of the ideas discribed, particularly the ones suggested by Otter. I understand that pictures are not the best way to see the interaction between the prepared surface and light; never mind the acoustic properties of the system... but if folks are looking for what I call a 'fish-skin' effect, this may be a very interesting aprouch. Starting with an alkaline oxidizer solution, follow by a carboxilic/phenolic solution, then a mild alkaly solution, and ending with terpene rich solution. No varnish has been applied. The two pictures are under different light intensity.

Legna

post-34196-0-19526900-1413385358_thumb.jpgpost-34196-0-58261200-1413385837_thumb.jpg

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Hi everyone,

I hope it is not to late for this, but I thought I should show my attempted replication of some of the ideas discribed, particularly the ones suggested by Otter. I understand that pictures are not the best way to see the interaction between the prepared surface and light; never mind the acoustic properties of the system... but if folks are looking for what I call a 'fish-skin' effect, this may be a very interesting aprouch. Starting with an alkaline oxidizer solution, follow by a carboxilic/phenolic solution, then a mild alkaly solution, and ending with terpene rich solution. No varnish has been applied. The two pictures are under different light intensity.

Legna

attachicon.gifimage.jpgattachicon.gifimage.jpg

Angel?

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Hi everyone,

I hope it is not to late for this, but I thought I should show my attempted replication of some of the ideas discribed, particularly the ones suggested by Otter. I understand that pictures are not the best way to see the interaction between the prepared surface and light; never mind the acoustic properties of the system... but if folks are looking for what I call a 'fish-skin' effect, this may be a very interesting aprouch. Starting with an alkaline oxidizer solution, follow by a carboxilic/phenolic solution, then a mild alkaly solution, and ending with terpene rich solution. No varnish has been applied. The two pictures are under different light intensity.

Legna

attachicon.gifimage.jpgattachicon.gifimage.jpg

It looks like the two pictures were not only taken at different light intensities, but also with different color temperatures. I may be wrong, but based on my "fly by  the eye" observations, I don't see any difference between the two.

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The use of terpenes and sugars in the same ground system is proving its value.

 

Quoting myself,

 

"Here is therefore my hypothesis, a prediction:

 

My experiment of years ago suggests that turpentine and sugars, when allowed to work together as PART of a layered system employing multiple thin films and subsequent heatings of surfaces (what I call "flame polishing" of variously treated surfaces), will provide us with some unexpectedly gorgeous optics - possibly leading even to pleochroism as we continuously vary the tilt of the treated wood while viewing its movement under various lightings."

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legna, on 15 Oct 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:legna, on 15 Oct 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Hi everyone,

I hope it is not to late for this, but I thought I should show my attempted replication of some of the ideas discribed, particularly the ones suggested by Otter. I understand that pictures are not the best way to see the interaction between the prepared surface and light; never mind the acoustic properties of the system... but if folks are looking for what I call a 'fish-skin' effect, this may be a very interesting aprouch. Starting with an alkaline oxidizer solution, follow by a carboxilic/phenolic solution, then a mild alkaly solution, and ending with terpene rich solution. No varnish has been applied. The two pictures are under different light intensity.

Legna

attachicon.gifimage.jpgattachicon.gifimage.jpg

What are we supposed to be seeing in those two pictures?   It just looks like a plain piece of maple.   And what do you mean by fish skin effect?  

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Hi Doug,

Not sure what do you mean by 'color temperature'. But, this is what I did: I put the sample on my (dirty) workbench and brought the lamp close to it. Took a shot. Then brought the lamp even closer so the sample to get more light on it, and took another shot (cellphone camera). Done. The lightbulb I'm currently using is a LED type.

Also I should mention that I tried what Otter calls 'flame polishing' after the application of each of the water-based solutions, ones they had dried. So, I passed the sample back and forth over an alcohol (70%) lamp. As you can see there is no scorshing of the wood, since some the substances are natural fire retardant. No 'flame polishing' after last terpene-rich solution. Just some gentle burnishing.

Please, pardon my English. It is not my mother tongue.

Legna

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What are we supposed to be seeing in those two pictures?   It just looks like a plain piece of maple.   And what do you mean by fish skin effect?

'Plain piece of maple' really?? Is that what you see? I guess this proof how effective a picture could be when talking about violin ground. Although I would probably blame it on my non-existing photographic skills. You don't have to believe me, but I asure you there is a lot of staff in that piece of wood. It is NOT bare wood at all.

What do I mean by fish-skin effect? Hard for me to explain, but I would say, look at how the scales-skin of fish changes color when light stricks them from different directions. Perhaps this is not the most appropriate description, but it is what comes close to me right now, to describe what I see.

Legna

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yes plain wood is what I see. If it is treated in some way then you should take a photo of that treated wood next to a piece of untreated wood for comparison so we can see the difference.

Photos can be misleading. If there is nothing there to compare it with then it looks like nothing special.

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Lenga, I think it would be helpful if people know who you are, so to speak, that you are a maker, that you converse with Otter and bat around some of his ideas and that even if Otters wrong and even if he can be a wee abrasive, that he is not Lyndon and that some of his ideas have merit

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Hi Doug,

Not sure what do you mean by 'color temperature'. But, this is what I did: I put the sample on my (dirty) workbench and brought the lamp close to it. Took a shot. Then brought the lamp even closer so the sample to get more light on it, and took another shot (cellphone camera). Done. The lightbulb I'm currently using is a LED type.

Also I should mention that I tried what Otter calls 'flame polishing' after the application of each of the water-based solutions, ones they had dried. So, I passed the sample back and forth over an alcohol (70%) lamp. As you can see there is no scorshing of the wood, since some the substances are natural fire retardant. No 'flame polishing' after last terpene-rich solution. Just some gentle burnishing.

Please, pardon my English. It is not my mother tongue.

Legna

Perhaps you should educate yourself on color temperature and photography. Do you have overhead lighting? If so, what kind? In your pictures, the background is more yellow on the left, and more brown on the right. The color of your sample also tracks this. I don't see the difference between the before and after. To me, that indicates that your scheme did nothing visible. While I would encourage experimentation, it's really necessary to compare an untreated sample with a treated one, side by side. I would also include a sample treated with a more traditional, proven ground. I would also caution you about using some of the chemicals that otter is promoting, as they are quite hazardous.

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Hi MikeC,

Ahhhh, finally, I can get to sit and have fun! Those who have kids under five, must surely know how good it feels as it gets closer to mid-night!!!

Here is a picture with two pieces of wood side by side: the treated one from earlier today (on the left) and a second one non-treated, just scraped (on the right). Wile not a great difference in color, great difference in APPEARANCE. The two pieces however, came from the same block of maple (leftover from a neck), which I purposely chose to be plain, with little or no flames, so that I don't get distracted with its natural beauty, if you know what I mean... and focus on what's going on on the rays and within the fibers. The only light in the room was the one coming from the lamp on my bench. No overhead light or natural light. My camera? my cellphone! But with a portable device you can zoom in quite a bit, and have a good idea.post-34196-0-33943300-1413432847_thumb.jpg

Hi Doug,

I sure should educate myself on that subject, and on many others for which I have a great appreciation, and just keep piling up books upon books. However, with the time that I have to dispouse, I try to keep my focus on the subjects dearest to me.

A more 'traditional ground' sounds to me like an unfare, never mind difficult enterprise to take upon! Since there are as many of them as violin makers in the world, and they all are so different from each other, in terms of LOOK. Besides, of those we have countless examples to choose from. I prefer to compare against natural wood; the point of reference of my choice. On the other hand, here is picture of one my fiddles that just came back for a visit, sitting on my lap, as it ones did. The settings for the picture are the same as before. This violin has a more 'traditional approach to the ground. It is a calcium caseinate-gesso ground. And for those interested in the details, the calcium used is the tannate salt of Ca or Calcium tannate. Which makes incredibly elastic films. Speaking of which, I found quite similar results with the borax/tannate-gelatin version of it. But anyways, that is beside this subject. Thank you for your patience.

post-34196-0-89730700-1413436425_thumb.jpg

Legna

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Before we go too much further with this, I might suggest reading the post history of Brian Mclinden, otter and Legna, and noting the commonalities in content and writing style. Particularly word usage. This I begin to feel is not so much about the content within as the setting of the stage. I don't know how to link threads, but things become fairly obvious in Jezzupes' sugar ground thread. A 'please excuse my poor english' foreigner with better spelling and grammar usage than most natives,which just HAPPENS to have precisely the same single-focus common interest as both otter and Brian mclinden (who we know to be the same person), and conveniently suddenly has a 'heres one I prepared earlier' ground recipe prescribed directly by otter, despite not having been active on this forum for about the same length of time as- er- Brian Mclinden. Then proceed to note: Brian made four violins in violin school. Otter (Brian) made three then ran out of money. Legna presented as an enthusiastic novice with 'poor english' which is about as poor as the Queens', asks a question nobody even cares about except otter, who 'just happens' to have been studying the very same thing.

Sorry, am I spoiling the play? Let it go on.

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Multiple personalities aside,  I'll comment on the photos.   The violin looks nice!   I can now see a difference in the wood samples.

 

 The treated sample appears to have more contrast between the light wood and the dark grain.  I would consider that a good thing although it's the only difference I can see.

 

  Curious about the left hand side of the treated piece, it looks darker than the rest I guess that's just a natural dark area in the wood.  You can see it faintly on the right side of the untreated piece.   

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