Do you build Bergonzi?

[joerobson]

It is no secret here that I am big Carlo Bergonzi fan.  He is often referred to as the "makers' maker".

But I seldom see contemporary makers doing a Bergonzi model.  I think there was only one at the VSA competition....correct me if I am wrong. 

Do you build a Bergonzi?  Why or why not?  If you do...which one and why?

On we go,

Joe

 

[Omobono]

I love those C-bouts and f-holes. Very distinctive and the height of elegance.

 

I can't place your 'Carlo' but I guessing it is earlier rather than later with those softer f-holes which become more splayed and elongated?

 

[Michael Appleman]

I've always been a fan of Bergonzi family violins, and the Bergonzi exhibition book is full of amazing and inspiring images and information. It also brings home how rare they are, and I realize looking back, i've only ever played on one Carlo (although a Joseph filius I played once sure had a Bergonzi-esque outline) and one Carlo/Michelangelo joint venture, besides several "grandson" Bergonzis. I like Joe's characterization of Carlo as a "maker's maker." Looking at his scroll pictures makes me want to throw away my tools and give up.

Last fiddle I made, I wanted to experiment with the Bergonzi outline and see whether the "wasp waist" break at the corners, especially the upper corners, could be achieved by modifying the cut of the inner curves of the corner blocks, still using a Guarneri-traced mold. It kinda worked, but I don't think I'll do it that way again, the proportions of the upper/middle/lower bouts didn't come out as satisfyingly as I'd hoped. In the future, I'll make a mold based on the ones in the Bergonzi exhibition book and try to make a full-on Bergonzi inspired fiddle. 

[Urban Luthier]

nice photos Joe. I have never seen a Bergonzi in the flesh, but I just love the look of his work from the photos I've seen

 

I did get to see a truly amazing Peter Guarneri of Mantua last week at Heinl's in Toronto. Another maker one doesn't see copied all that much. This instrument truly was amazing, the nicest varnish I've yet seen.

[Will L]

 

Do you build a Bergonzi?  Why or why not?  If you do...which one and why?

 

Until recently, to my knowledge there were no posters.  So without substantial information I never wanted to copy from just an enlarged  photo, without having some idea of the arches.  Now that there are at least two posters, I'm thinking about it.

 

Also, IMO, if we get close on a Strad or dG, our model will still be recognized.  I don't know if I can capture Bergonzi well enough to have it be recognizable.  I'm afraid some client would say, "Strad's ears didn't stick out that much!"      I bet we start to see more makers giving it a try, though.

 

Yes, thanks for the photos.  Anyone interested should get the book that was made for the exhibition.  There is a table of measurements. 

[skiingfiddler]

A Maestroneter who hasn't posted in a while and who has used a Bergonzi model is Martina Hawe.  Also Tets Kimura.  Also a maker in Salzburg uses a Bergonzi model.  Seems to occur more in Europe than in the USA.

 

Steven Csik

[Michael Doran]

We had a nice Bergonzi com through the shop where I worked. I made a few Bergonzi models after that, but I felt like it was difficult to get enough power from so narrow a waist. They were very sweet, but I wanted more growl. On my last one, when I took the ribs off the mold I pushed the c-bouts wider and it was more in the direction I wanted the sound to go. The proportions ended up being similar to a Guarneri; since then I've just made Guarneris. That Bergonzi scroll sure was fun though.

M

[Tets Kimura]

I fully agree with Michael. I have made a fair number of Bergonzi copies, and my experience has been the same.

 

Somewhat disappointingly, the most tonally successful ones have been those I made to diverge from the original. I think that the problem is not only to do with a narrow waist, but also from the arching. 

 

I'm sure you can make it work while still sticking to the original concept, but not easy.

 

Neil Ertz made some of Bergonzi copies as well. Wonder if he chimes in.

[Doug Cotterill]

The first two violins I made were copies of a Bergonzi violin known as "The Constable". I respect all of the old Cremonese makers, but Bergonzi is the only one I'm a fan of.

[Michael Appleman]

What these experienced violin-makers have been saying about the sound of their Bergonzi model violins is very interesting. I've always found the Carlo Bergonzi violins I've seen in real life and in pictures to be very beautiful and compelling. After getting the Bergonzi exhibition book, I was troubled by how many of these beautiful violins went through the hands of major soloists, without ever seeming to becoming their main concert instrument. Certainly, some very fine violinists, like Angel Reyes, Eddy Brown, and Mischa Piastro played on them, but the fact that for certain soloists who owned Bergonzis as well as Strads and Del Gesus, the Bergonzis seemed to have transitted their collections without having seen a lot of use in concert situations. (Kreisler, Perlman, Menuhin, just to name a few) The Carlo I got to try and saw and heard frequently was used by a major concertmaster here in Europe and did a fine job for that violinist, and the Carlo/Michelangelo I got to try was I believe the ex-Piastro (or its twin) which I only got to use during a Bach Double concert, so it wasn't really a test for the fiddle's carrying power. Both of these fiddles had a noble, pure sound, that seemed to carry very well in a hall, but did not necessarily seem that loud under the ear, certainly neither "growly" nor "bassy" as a Del Gesu or a late Strad can be. I'm not jumping to any conclusions, and I wouldn't extrapolate anything from my limited experience playing these fiddles, and i certainly wouldn't turn down a Bergonzi loaner if it came my way, but I find this feedbackfrom the makers very interesting indeed.

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

For those -- like me -- who have not been able to come up with the scratch for the coveted Bergonzi book, a few pics.  These of a 1730 Carlo

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

Carlo 1740

[christian bayon]

I'm currently building a Bergonzi copy, something like the "Earl of Falmouth". I fall in love with Bergonzi 35 years ago, working on the Yann Pascal Tortelier violin, now Olivier Charlier instrument.

[Janito]

. I think that the problem is not only to do with a narrow waist, but also from the arching. 

 

 

Please say some more about your thoughts on the arching. 

 

Has anyone done a meticulously exact copy of a Bergonzi, say Earl of Falmouth, and found it to be deficient in sound?

 

I ask because sometimes little things are tweaked because they don't feel right.

[Omobono]

For those -- like me -- who have not been able to come up with the scratch for the coveted Bergonzi book, a few pics.  These of a 1730 Carlo

Thanks, Julian. Is there a pic of the entire back of this 1730?

[Guest]

We had a nice Bergonzi com through the shop where I worked. I made a few Bergonzi models after that, but I felt like it was difficult to get enough power from so narrow a waist. They were very sweet, but I wanted more growl. On my last one, when I took the ribs off the mold I pushed the c-bouts wider and it was more in the direction I wanted the sound to go. The proportions ended up being similar to a Guarneri; since then I've just made Guarneris. That Bergonzi scroll sure was fun though.

M

Hello Michael

What Guarneri model is your favorite to build? and why?

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

Thanks, Julian. Is there a pic of the entire back of this 1730?

Omo, if there is, it was not with these others.  I have checked all the usual places to determine where I found them, but to no avail.  One of those times when I wish I were more particular in my note taking as I download photos.

[Michael_Molnar]

Joe,

 

Is your photo the 1733 Salabue Martzy? The lighting differences between your photo and Reuning's exhibition catalog make identification difficult for me.

 

Let me add that I see large variations in Bergonzi's ff's style. 

 

I can also see why you like Bergonzi - varnish.

 

Mike

[joerobson]

Joe,

 

I can also see why you like Bergonzi - varnish.

 

Mike

And what esle is there?!?

[Stephen Faulk]

Are they any Bergonzi cello photos floating around that might be floated into this thread? 

[~ Ben Conover]

As far as narrow waists go, the 1731 Bergonzi is not so narrow, Gofriller 1700 much more so. 

I like the elegance of Bergonzi, lower bouts are shorter, some excellent details in his making. 
Never played one so can't comment on their tone as such. 

 

[Smith]

 .

[Roger Hargrave]

I am also a BIG Bergonzi fan. I have made several that are being played by exceptional players and I think I have good reason for choosing to copy his works. Carlo Bergonzi was unquestionably one of the finest and most valued violinmakers of the Cremonese classical period, and was almost certainly a more prolific maker than his rare surviving instruments suggest. In spite of great efforts by modern researchers, his working life largely remains a mystery. There is no sign of him for over 30 years and he was well into middle age before he produced the instruments, which are now accepted as his own unaided work. Most appear to have been made in a single decade, between the years 1730 and 1740. Though extremely scarce, these magnificent instruments vary considerably in form and style. In addition, only a few bear genuine unmoved labels. These factors make it difficult to arrange Bergonzi’s instruments chronologically. Opinion varies considerably as to the emergence of his first instruments. Some authorities place his earliest label as late as 1733, while others advocate the early to mid 1720’s. It has even been suggested that his initial works were made before the turn of the century. However, it is now widely believed that his final works, probably produced around 1744, were almost certainly completed with the help of his son Michelangelo.

 

The uncertainty about Carlo Bergonzi’s labels is indicative of the problem of Cremonese labels generally. Apart from a few recent noteworthy individuals, few serious attempt has been made to correlate data about the authenticity, dates and wording of the labels of any Cremonese maker. Theoretically this task should be quite straightforward especially for the better known makers, but unfortunately, the private enterprise nature of the violin business has not always been conducive to the free exchange of such information. Consequently as with most Cremonese makers it is not known how many genuine unmoved labels of Carlo Bergonzi actually exist.

 

In spite of their importance, it is not without reason that dealers seldom endorse labels. Although some serious scientific work has been undertaken concerning ancient papers and printing techniques, only rarely has such research been applied to violin labels in any but the most arbitrary way. The sad truth is that label expertise is still highly unreliable, in spite of the fact that genuine undisturbed labels are all that we have.  

 

Whenever Carlo Bergonzi’s began making, none of his accepted works give any indication that he was self-taught. In fact the theory that Carlo was a pupil or employee of Antonio Stradivari largely stems from the exceptional quality of his early craftsmanship. His work certainly resembles that of the Stradivaris in numerous ways. In addition although his knowledge of the Bergonzi family has often proved unreliable, Count Cozio di Salabue sets Carlo firmly in the Stradivari workshop from 1738 to 1743. The Bergonzi and Stradivari families are also known to have been on personal terms from at least 1740 if not before. Moreover, linking Carlo to the Stradivaris by association is the fact that in 1745-6, Paolo Stradivari let the Stradivari workshop-home to Carlo after the death of his brother Francesco Stradivari. Probably because of the harsher economic climate that prevailed in the 18^th century and because the Bergonzi family were relative newcomers to the violin business, apparently they never owned their own home or workshop.

 

In view of the fact that the mother-in-law and sister-in-law of Paolo Stradivari, and their servant girl, remained in the house, there may have been some form of special arrangement between Paolo and Carlo. By this time Carlo had been a widower for sixteen years, and as a lone parent he had been left to raise three daughters and two sons, so any ‘special arrangements’ might have been working for both parties.

 

After the death of Francesco Stradivari, in 1743 his brother Paolo claimed to have inherited almost 100 instruments from the workshop. It is logical to assume that some of these remained unfinished. Had this been the case, Paolo, who was a cloth merchant, would have required someone to complete them? Perhaps consequentially there are one or two instruments, which indicate a close collaboration between the Stradivaris and Carlo Bergonzi. A viola, ostensibly by Carlo Bergonzi, appears to have been started by the Stradivaris and finished by Michelangelo Bergonzi in the late 1740s, possibly because Carlo died shortly after moving into the Cassa Stradivari. This instrument, which when I saw it was in the possession of Charles Beare, has a back similar to the 1734 ‘Gibson’ viola and was built on the CV mould of Antonio Stradivari. There are several similar examples. However, there are also instruments which indicate a close cooperation before the death of Francesco. In particular I think of a violin with a head that might be considered typical of Carlo Bergonzi that has a body that might be considered typical of Francesco Stradivari. The Cremonese method of construction rules out such a combination after the death of Francesco, because the head not the body would have been made first. Incidentally this construction rule can also be applied to the cello dated 1729 that was started and labelled by Joseph filius and finished by his son Joseph Guarneri del Gesu.

 

In their masterpiece about the life and works of Stradivari, written in 1902, the Hill brothers came out in favour of a Stradivari connection. However, undaunted by this opinion, in 1931 they came to a different conclusion, preferring to place Carlo Bergonzi in the workshop of Joseph Guarneri filius Andrea. Although Carlo often incorporated features of Joseph filius’ work this judgment was based largely on comparisons of their respective outlines, especially the area around the upper corners and the centre bouts. However, as potential employers for Carlo Bergonzi the Guarneri family are an unlikely option. They were far from being affluent and from the Cassa Guarneri in the 1720's decade, there are only about twenty surviving instruments from the father and son combined; none of which have original labels. Indeed, only Antonio Stradivari was labelling instruments on a regular basis at that time. Accordingly it is conceivable he employed both of the Guarneris’ and Carlo Bergonzi. In which case, Carlo Bergonzi may have been influenced by Joseph Guarneri filius Andrea in Antonio Stradivari’s workshop.

 

That characteristics of both Stradivari and Guarneri should materialize in Bergonzi’s work may seem strange, but such mysterious and apparently contradictory elements often have simple explanations. And, as with the riddle of Del Gesu's heads, they may eventually be solved by careful research.

 

As if to complicate matters further, before Carlo Bergonzi moved to the Cassa Stradivari, in 1745-6 he lived in the parish of San Luca, in the same Cremonese quarter as Vincenzo Rugeri. Vincenzo, another enigmatic figure, could also have been Carlo's mentor. Several sources including the New Grove dictionary state that there is evidence linking Vincenzo and Carlo some time after 1705, before Carlo became a self-employed violinmaker. As with the Stradivaris, there is no doubt the Bergonzi and Rugeri families were closely associated. However, since Vincenzo's own work is rare, it has also been suggested that both were employed as outworkers, presumably for the Stradivaris. Nevertheless the Rugeri family appear to have been fairly affluent and while apparently not producing many violins they may have provided employment making different types of musical instruments.   

 

That Carlo’s life and work was demonstrably linked to so many Cremonese makers is probably less strange, than it is indicative of the norm. As has been demonstrated many times in recent years, classical Cremonese makers were a highly interactive workforce. This said, of the great Cremonese violinmakers Carlo may have been something of a special case. He does not appear to have had the status or clout of Cremona’s other famous names. The fact that he seems never to have owned a house or shop of his own suggests that he was essentially an employee rather than an entrepreneur. It is even possible that Carlo worked for several makers before finally assisting Francesco and Omobono Stradivari between 1738 and 1743 as Count Cozio de Salabue suggested.

 

That Carlo Bergonzi was one of the greatest Cremonese makers is beyond argument. Carlo Bergonzi is considered by many to have been the last of the great Cremonese makers; he was not the last member of the Bergonzi family to make violins. However, after his death a new standard prevailed. Faced with a fresh set of economic circumstances, the Cremonese makers who followed Carlo were largely concerned with cutting costs. Their work was less punctilious, their materials often of inferior quality, and perhaps most disturbing the famous Cremonese varnish was beginning to lose its lustre.

 

It may not be a popular line, but the best of Bergonzi’s work might be considered the culmination of all the knowledge and artistry that was known passed on and improved upon during the 200 years of this great school. At least that is my opinion.  

 

[Roger Hargrave]

I fully agree with Michael. I have made a fair number of Bergonzi copies, and my experience has been the same.

 

Somewhat disappointingly, the most tonally successful ones have been those I made to diverge from the original. I think that the problem is not only to do with a narrow waist, but also from the arching. 

 

I'm sure you can make it work while still sticking to the original concept, but not easy.

 

Neil Ertz made some of Bergonzi copies as well. Wonder if he chimes in.

 

I think that Neil made his first Bergonzi in my workshop.

[Doug Cotterill]

Roger, thanks extremely much for writing all that out, it's very interesting and educational.

 

I agree that the best of Bergonzi's work "might be considered the culmination of all the knowledge and artistry that was known passed on and improved upon during the 200 years of this great school.". The reason why my first violin was a copy of Bergonzi's "Constable" violin is because when I was starting out, I listened to the recording "The Glory of Cremona" where several great instruments were played one after another using the opening of the Bruch concerto. I loved the Bergonzi the most, it may have been a mix of the others. Here is what I heard:

 

 

On youTube it says under this video:

 

"The Glory of Cremona: A Violin by Carlo Bergonzi named The "Constable" made in 1731 and played by Ruggiero Ricci. Carlo Bergonzi followed more nearly the style of the Guarneris than that of Stradivari and was probably trained in the shop of Joseph Guarneri, son of Andrea. This beautiful example takes its name from its early English owner, Sir Clifford Constable."