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welshman

Anyone know this violin brand?

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Just got this violin in on consignment and trying to figure out how to advise the owner, some bit of history behind it and of course some old apprasials as to what it is but,,,,,,,,,,

 

there are many things about it that raises its level of bogusity but what I will ask first is if anyone recognizes the "star" brands on the back, top and bottom, the rest fits in with a Mittenwald product but just who and when remains up in the air to my mind and I hope the brands will allow for some degree of certainty.

 

as to the question marks and red flags I can start with the rather crude pegbox and scroll, the neck is no thing of beauty either and you can see the mis shaped button in the photo too.

 

the varnish is near perfect but there has been some restorations of the corners and a crack in the top bout, beautifly done but perhaps the varnish was played with at that time?  don't know

 

From the body it is clearly a Klotz family which is what the nicely handwritten label says, Joeseph Klotz, Senior in Mittenwald, 1807 no 308, which is all well and good but this is exactly what is in Hendley's book right down to the number. That makes me doubt the label big time.

 

The condition and varnish is way too nice for something supposed to be 207 years old, inside looks too clean too. The workmanship of scroll and neck is not what I would expect also.

 

The history is that it was used in Romania professionally, for many years prior to 1980's when the family immagrated to Cleveland, elderly owner is the daughter of the player/composser who used this in orchestras in Romania for his lifetime.

 

thanks for any help anyone can give

Reese

 

 

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I've seen similar stamps many times, mostly on Saxon/Czech instruments, which yours looks like to me. For example look where the fluting on the scroll ends.

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The purfling is the classic "narrow white" Mk/Sch.

This type of brand can be made with rod stock and two files... i.e. not a professionally made brand.

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Since no one else has said so, I believe that the stamp is supposed to suggest a Hopf connection, so combining that with a Klotz label gives you an item nearly as amusing as the notorious "Strainer" was.  Looking at scroll, endpin area, and button, IMHO this thing was made no closer to Mittenwald than Markneukirchen.

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Are you going to have to open it, or can you see the blocks and all through the endpin hole?   That pretty yellow varnish is bugging me, I'm wondering if the thing is post-WW2 East German or Rumanian, etc., in origin.  If the structure is mixed mode (Saxon looks over real blocks) it suggests an origin after  Schoenbach got ethnically cleansed to Luby, and given the Rumanian owners, and the politics of the period, it would probably have come from their side of the wire rather than from Bubenreuth or Bohemian refugees in Mittenwald.   Not all of the Saxon violinmakers fled to the West, just the majority.

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yes, you are all echoing my own thoughts, I could see it was hinkie but I am faced with having to explain that to a nice elderly lady with limited english that her family treasure is not nearly as valuable as all of her stacks of papers indicate, they are sure it is a real joseph klotz and while that would be worth the 6k, this violin isn't worth near that and it is up to me to break the news and try to sell it. I do think it will be a nice violin for a new owner but I was hoping to get some infomation to use as backup when i let her down.

 

the inside is better than the scroll would indicate - nice linings, good corners but i will not be opening it, perhaps it was "cleaned up" when the crack in the upper bass bout was fixed.

 

reese

 

I was hoping beyond hope that that brand was recognizable

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An authentic Joseph Kloz would be worth a great deal more than 6k (dollars?) ...

A nice Mittenwald violin with an apocryphal Kloz label might be around that price, but the real thing would be worth more like 3-4 times that.

Kloz family violins are vastly outnumbered by nice Mittenwald violins with Kloz family labels, to the extent that most people think these violins ARE Kloz - even auction houses get lazy and refer to violins as "Kloz Family" when they just mean Mittenwald labelled as Kloz.

I would think that an authentic violin in good condition by any of the actual Kloz family would be $20K or over, and a good Sebastian Kloz would be twice that.

Unfortunately this violin is an anonymous Schoenbach instrument which doesn't even appear to have its original varnish, and its value must surely be more like $1K.

 

Which puts you in a difficult position!

Everyone has different approaches to this problem, but I would try to be tactful and resist being too categorical. Ultimately the only person who can make a difference in this situation is a recognized expert in Kloz family violins who has no agenda with regard to this particular violin.

 

I would probably say that I wasn't sure of the attribution and wouldn't want to handle the instrument unless it had been seen by such a person. You could let them have your photos and suggest sending them to an expert with specialist knowledge of Kloz/Mittenwald. If there's someone in your part of the world that they could take the violin to, all the better. We all know it's a bit of a formality, but it would let the owners down gently without it backfiring on you. No-one likes the bearer of bad news.

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The purfling is the classic "narrow white" Mk/Sch.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I always read that at German purfling, the black stripes usually are thinner than the white part, so when looking at this violin, I assumed that it was german, although it doesn't have the bee sting, and other commom german features.

But after Addie's post, I start looking at it as French.

What do you think (specifically about the purfling)?

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Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I always read that at German purfling, the black stripes usually are thinner than the white part, so when looking at this violin, I assumed that it was german, although it doesn't have the bee sting, and other commom german features.

But after Addie's post, I start looking at it as French.

What do you think (specifically about the purfling)?

Sorry, can't attach the picture from the ipad( hate the new iOs).

Will try it later

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Hi Richard, thanks for the link, that is it exactly, interesting that it appears on so many models

 

Martin, I agree with your dollar figures, just used the last document's number in my post which means the guy doing it hedged his bets and didn't want to commit either way without really saying it.

 

This person is known for inflated numbers and his fee based on percentage of that.

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I've been scratching about on the stamp, but other than that it's been observed several times on fake Klotzes with Saxon traits, as well as has a resemblance to Hopf "cartwheels", I'm stalled for the moment.  Anyone know anything about it?

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Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I always read that at German purfling, the black stripes usually are thinner than the white part, so when looking at this violin, I assumed that it was german, although it doesn't have the bee sting, and other commom german features.

But after Addie's post, I start looking at it as French.

What do you think (specifically about the purfling)?

This purfling type, which is far beyond just “thinner white,” is unique to Markneukirchen/Schönbach, probably c.1880 to WWI.  Note that the “black” is not black, but grey.

 

Since this violin has this purfling,  6 O’clock scroll fluting, and BoB corners, it is Mk/Sch.  

 

Martin thinks the brand is recently added.  The varnish and brand do look very fresh for a c.1900 violin.  But the other example seems to have the same brand, and original finish.  Puzzling.

 

The label on the “other” is an obvious fake, but likely original to, or at least contemporary with, the violin.

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Actually I now think the brand is compatible with revarnishing ...

It looks unusually clean, but it's also missing a few strokes here and there as if the wood has been scraped.

Here's another Sch..... with the same brand : http://www.ebay.de/itm/ANTIKE-FRANZOSISCHE-GAND-FRERES-MEISTER-GEIGE-VON-CHARLES-EUGENE-GAND-UM-1860-/371159456077?pt=Antike_Musikinstrumente&hash=item566ad3d94d

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Aha! Now Welshman has a comparable instrument... And value.

Scraping makes sense. Brands can be tricky, because they aren't always level when applied, BUT this one is missing a couple of lines that didn't make sense until you posted that.

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