Violadamore Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have only heard one exceptionally bad sounding Strad... and it sounded bad in a way very much unlike any other bad sounding fiddles I have come across. It sounded like it was made of damp cardboard... really, really horrid. I was just wondering if perhaps there might be some aging process, which taken to excess (either by variations in wood chemistry, treatment, or environment) lead to a recognizable "Bad Cremonese Sound" which is distinctly different from a "Bad Modern Sound". Such a process, in moderation, might first kill off the mid frequencies (???) and lead to the patterns in objective measurements that Buen, Curtin, and I all seem to find? Now this is really interesting. Thank you. Could a spectrogram of this offensive instrument, and perhaps its plate densities be shared with us? Is there a sound clip anywhere? [Considers the implications of A Search For The Bad Cremonese Sound as well as the possibilities of a Bad Cremonese Sound Competition and collapses in helpless mirth ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 No doubt some cutting comments were made about the varnish and antiquing as well Ha ha ha! Yes, in particular, I'm guessing, with regard to the antiquing... which was really trying to make that violin's "old look" real, but which had failed miserably to emulate the real thing! (and yes - we would be talking about the real thing here) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Hi Don. OK I admit, I made a pretty sweeping assertion, that there was no such thing as Cremonese sound. I suppose a fuller version of that idea would be that there are many great-sounding old violins (I can think of early 18th century examples from Cremona, Holland, Venice and England), but I don't believe there is anything tonally specific about great violins from Cremona. Do people do impact hammer measurements of great-sounding Kleynmanns, Serafins and Parkers? Never saw any. Nor do I think there's anything specific about bad-sounding old violins from Cremona. I can think of a horrendous Amati that sounded as you describe, but also a Tecchler (Rome), a Parker (London) and a few others ... Yes I think there is a special tonal quality associated with age, and so far I haven't heard a new violin that has this quality. That it might be to do with some loss of cross-grain stiffness is a really interesting idea. However, not all old violins have this sound quality. I was lucky enough to play a Del Gesu a couple of days ago which sounded in every respect modern - but an Andrea Guarneri on the same table had in abundance the sound that I love and which so far I have only heard in really old violins. From a recording engineer/producer's point of view, I think your analysis of this sound conforms to mine. It seems that when this ageing process occurs (by no means a given), very high frequencies remain, the fundamental remains, but the nasty upper-mid stuff tends to recede. Whenever i've needed to enhance a recording of a violin, the process is always the same .... 1. add a nice wide swathe around 3-400 (the fundamentals of the note) 2. search around with a scalpel and remove some nasty stuff around 1-2kHz (often two very narrow bands of specific "nasal" resonance that persist irrespective of the material being played) 3. add a nice wide band of very high frequency content (8kHz and up) which exaggerates the complexity of high harmonics, pinpoints the sound of the instrument in the stereo image, and tickles the ear (if it's capable of hearing in that area) If there is a tonal artifact connected with the ageing of wood, it isn't present in all violins. I don't suppose it necessarily takes that long to develop. I'm always surprised at how the "in your face" quality of some of our new violins recedes even in the first two years, while others remain unchanged. I suppose it would be slightly difficult to compare the cross-grain stiffness of a piece of wood when it's new and when it's 300 years old, but that would be good data Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Although I somewhat disagree with the first sentence, that isn't really why I lifted this quote. It's about the really bad sounding Cremonese, in particular Bad Strads. I have only heard one exceptionally bad sounding Strad... and it sounded bad in a way very much unlike any other bad sounding fiddles I have come across. It sounded like it was made of damp cardboard... really, really horrid. I was just wondering if perhaps there might be some aging process, which taken to excess (either by variations in wood chemistry, treatment, or environment) lead to a recognizable "Bad Cremonese Sound" which is distinctly different from a "Bad Modern Sound". Such a process, in moderation, might first kill off the mid frequencies (???) and lead to the patterns in objective measurements that Buen, Curtin, and I all seem to find? Interesting thoughts. When I've had the chance to work on Strads which sounded like cardboard, they also pretty much worked like cardboard under the cutting tools. I'd been thinking that these instruments had been subjected to high-moisture degradation, but maybe there are other viable explanations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Kasprzyk Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Now this is really interesting. Thank you. Could a spectrogram of this offensive instrument, and perhaps its plate densities be shared with us? Is there a sound clip anywhere? [Considers the implications of A Search For The Bad Cremonese Sound as well as the possibilities of a Bad Cremonese Sound Competition and collapses in helpless mirth ] That's an interesting thought. People often disagree about what is good. Is there agreement about what is bad? Or are people just generally disagreeable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Is there agreement about what is bad? Or are people just generally disagreeable? Hey, I'm glad you said it, and not not me. I am trying my best to keep people "neutral" in this discussion. And, I mean about anything that may come up. We all can see what happens, or what people can do to ruin a worthwhile post, right? But that hasn't happened here yet. And no one has become stupidly inclusive about their ideas. Thank God. The greater the disagreement - the more value that can "maybe" be derived from the discussion, because more basic things that are "disagreeable" between any two people will be bandied about. And the side that is obviously weaker, will 'usually' wither, or just give up, or be "beaten" so badly that they will either shut up - or they'll re-think their position, and "just maybe" re-think it all, and realize their "error", (if their is one, that is) - and take on a new and, perhaps better opinion - and perhaps adopt a more more accomplished or even just simply a more realistic violin making procedure or process. That's one reason why I would even post a topic, with such a title as this one has. It isn't that I think that "what's missing", will be offered up for all of us to realize and adopt. Because it won't. Time has shown us that it will not be accomplished, like this. But in thinking about such a real, and elusive thing as this really exists, we may be prompted towards accomplishing something somewhat like it as a goal. And if, perchance, it doesn't really exist, well, then those people will have an opportunity to voice that probability equally. And arguments around the subject are all equally welcome. And I will continue to interject my own take on the subject as I feel it might be necessary... as I love thinking that there may be something basic missing and that we (as a team) may well either discover something, or someone may stumble on something pervasively workable - that everyone could adopt and the level of making would then take on a higher aspect. A higher competitive level - if you will. (...because I am a closet "Strad worshiper" at heart - just thought I'd let you all know) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Or are people just generally disagreeable? Well... such disagreement is welcome here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.