Surviving works from Andrea Amati

[Ben Hebbert]

Ben, I have a few questions. I hope that it is okay with everyone here to continue in this Brescian vein, I think that there has been some crossover and so it seems relevant.

 

If this letter is written in 1637, it would mean that the instruments referred to as coming from Cremona could only have been made by a handful of makers wouldn't it ? Nicolo Amati and...  Who do you think these makers would have been and at the same time in Brescia who could we expect to be making instruments ?

 

 

I can't believe that it would be anyone else than Nicolo Amati!

 

The Brescian question is a completely different one. I think this comes down, once again to the availability of Brescian instruments rather than any idea that they were being made at the time. After all, Galileo only wants to get an instrument for his nephew, he doesn't want necessarily to commission one. I think in the context of the letter, it's fairly clear that because the nephew works in a ducal court, only the best and most expensive will be suitable.

 

 

I also have a question regarding the concept of da Salo having a workforce under him to assist in the production of instruments. Are there any remains that are thought to be from his workshop that would point to the possibility of this such as patterns, molds etc ? Am I correct in understanding that the Brescian method was at most using a partial mold ? (C bouts I would guess ). Would there be records showing him as an employer or occupying a large space. If not and you are correct then perhaps it was cottage type wokers who would supply him ?

 

 

Nothing whatsoever, and my hypothesis is deeply conjectural. As far as the instruments go, I think they are pretty consistent, with consistencies running through the various shapes. For example, the "Spanish-model" viol and the former lira da braccio in the Hill collection (the one without top corners - now a viola)  both are made with bearclaw spruce, which seems to be identical, so although on craftsmanship on these is about as different as is possible on two da Salo instruments, the materials are the same. I don't think you could look at all 80-or-more da Salos and easily distill them into separate hands - and where potentially you could, the similarities would lean towards proving a cooperative relationship, such as a workshop with one craftsman overseeing everyone, completeing the instruments or defining a house style (much the same as we argue for Stradivari and his sons). Certainly when you are in the Ashmolean I think the da Salo viola has the appearance of being made to a different approach from the other two things, but is obviously within the da Salo house style. This may reflect period, as much as it may reflect a different hand within the workshop. This, of course, is part of the reason we can be fairly certain that the Ole Bull is by da Salo - because it even matches with some fairly grotty cheap things that have the same label, despite being amazing work.

 

That said, there's no disputing the round da Salo brand on the back of the cittern - similar brands were used by Virchi, Campi and other Brescian makers. Yet, I'd make a bet that was outwork!

 

 

Lastly, is there a good text on Brescian violin construction that you would reccomend. The concept of construction is one that I am very interested in right now, not only for ID purposes but also from the standpoint of making instruments.

 

I think the person to ask about this is Francois Denis. He's done more (and better) work than anyone. - but yes, there seems to be a single c-mould used.

[Rick Hyslop]

Thanks Ben for all of your thoughts. Hopefully we will get some more input from Francois. It strikes me as odd though that there are a plethora of texts and books about Cremonese construction and none that I can find about Brescian construction.  Does anyone own the Lituai in Brescia book ? Would that be a good source ? I think that Francois contributed to it, but I am not sure to what degree or in what way.

 

r.

[Rick Hyslop]

I wanted to ressurect this thread. I hope I am not alone !

 

r.

[Rick Hyslop]

Okay I guess in order to ask for a resurrection I need to make an offering !

 

My interest in this thread was a question as to the dearth of exisiting Andrea Amati instruments in comparison to da Salo, his other living competitor.

 

I suppose that I could accept Ben's explanation of quantity vs quality, but at the same time this suggests that Andrea Amati only really ever made violin family instruments for the royal court of France. Where did he cut his teeth ? If he was an instrument maker prior to this why can we find no evidence of these instruments ?

 

Also and in keeping with this, my major beef here then would be the accreditation of the "first violin" to Andrea Amati when it was more likely a gentle shift into this form by those makers who were being asked to follow the fashion of the day not unlike da Salo.

 

The presence of so few Andrea Amati instruments known today, where he is credited as the father of the violin seems just outright strange to me.

 

So I can only surmise from the existing body of work, that either he only made those few instruments that we know of for the courts of France and hung up his hat afterwards, or there is something missing from the story.

 

I am just really curious about this idea and am definitely not trying to be a muckraker.

 

Enlighten me please.

 

r.

[Blank face]

It's not the worsest idea being a muckraker, if it provokes so much valuable and fascinating information - please more of this!

 

My amateurish thoughts about this matter is, that it's amazing that so many of this delicate stuff has survived the centuries - Ben is talking about 80 or more Da Salos, how much must have been there before?

When you're taking into consideration, that mankind through all the ages (starting with homo erectus) has used and made musical instruments, but how less of this millions of objects has survived, and nearly all the survivers were made of stone and bone, not from wood. There was found the wrackage of a wooden harp in a Pharao's grave, but all the other harps, flutes and drums they used to play are lost and gone.

 

We heard, that the church dammed the violin and burned them on stakes, that people going through the plague and the wars are supposed to have other concerns than to keep an eye on a small musical instrument, and so the few violins in the chambers of the rich and wealthy had a much better chance than the many others hold by the common people.

 

One of the last shoot in the movie "Mission" by Roland Joffé (with Robert de Niro and Jeremy Irons) shows a broken violin swimming in the Amazonas waters, and beside it's most sad meaning about violence and brutality, it symbolizes what probably happened to most of these artefacts.

[Rick Hyslop]

Blank face, this of course makes sense, I guess somehow I expect superhuman qualities from these makers which would embody their instruments with the ability to be indestructible.

 

Also though, I was questioning the lack of even one surviving viol, lira da braccio, gamba or something from the hands of Andrea Amati. Examples exist of da Salo gambas and viols if I am not mistaken. It also seems from my reading that there are a surprising amount of examples from sixteenth century Italian viol makers like Anthony Ciciliano. On the English front it seems that there are extant viols by sixteenth century makers such as John Rose.

 

I would think that Ben could enlighten us here as I have come across more than one document concerning early instruments where he has been footnoted or cited as author.

 

I read this article by Roger Hargrave which basically related to all of my questions in the post above and that was of course a very informative read.

 

http://www.roger-hargrave.de/PDF/Artikel/Strad_Amati/Artikel_1_pdf_PDF.pdf

 

This article though raised some more questions for me. If Amati was using an inside mold and corner blocks possibly with let in linings then why and from where would he have transitioned into this type of construction ? I tried to find some information on basic viol construction but didn't get too far. It seems though that the general method of securing the corners was to use linen and not some type of block. This however would clearly be best stated by someone with more knowledge on the subject of viol construction. I hope that someone will be able to clarify this for me.

 

Cheers.

 

r.

[Omobono]

Someone inadvertently showed me this picture of St Cecilia.

If you put aside the idea she is playing with the instrument in a vertical position

I was struck by how good a representation of a violin it is. Four strings with even a metal wound G?

Guido Reni 1606!

(the 'f-holes' seem to anticipate the "Ole Bull" del Gesu some 150 years later) 

 

[Omobono]

This is a spooky photo..... even the C-bouts seem to match up.

[Mark Caudle]

Thanks for the very nice quality of this picture upload.

I'm pretty sure the g is not overspun but just a darker colour. It seems to be proportionally thicker to the D as you would expect from gut. 

[Michael_Molnar]

I received this Flyer AMATI (9.14) x mail 300dpi.pdf from Brigitte Brandmair about the Girolamo Amati Viola in the Galleria Estense. There was an article in the October 2014 Strad magazine about this viola and the high resolution micro-CT scans. The new book includes a CD with the scans in 3D.

 

The flyer explains how to place an order for the book.

 

Mike

 

[Jim Bress]

Thanks for the link mike. I never tire of looking at the Ct scans in the Strad magazine. Definately on my "must have" Christmas wish list.

Cheers,

Jim

[pold]

Someone inadvertently showed me this picture of St Cecilia.

If you put aside the idea she is playing with the instrument in a vertical position

I was struck by how good a representation of a violin it is. Four strings with even a metal wound G?

Guido Reni 1606!

(the 'f-holes' seem to anticipate the "Ole Bull" del Gesu some 150 years later) 

 

 

And the bridge also looks symmetrical, which is what I like to use, interesting.

[pold]

I received this Flyer AMATI (9.14) x mail 300dpi.pdf from Brigitte Brandmair about the Girolamo Amati Viola in the Galleria Estense. There was an article in the October 2014 Strad magazine about this viola and the high resolution micro-CT scans. The new book includes a CD with the scans in 3D.

 

The flyer explains how to place an order for the book.

 

Mike

 

Thanks, I think CT scans of the garlands are still the most reliable things to print a mold.

[Davide Sora]

I received this Flyer AMATI (9.14) x mail 300dpi.pdf from Brigitte Brandmair about the Girolamo Amati Viola in the Galleria Estense. There was an article in the October 2014 Strad magazine about this viola and the high resolution micro-CT scans. The new book includes a CD with the scans in 3D.

 

The flyer explains how to place an order for the book.

 

Mike

 

This viola is temporarily on display for some time at the MdV museum here in Cremona, side by side with the "Stauffer" 1615 viola by the same author, almost two twins.

Stunning work in excellent state of preservation, it is the same also shown on this Strad poster : http://www.orpheusmusicshop.com/posters/P133.html

although the color of this poster is somewhat wrong, too reddish orange.

[Bruce Carlson]

This viola is temporarily on display for some time at the MdV museum here in Cremona, side by side with the "Stauffer" 1615 viola by the same author, almost two twins.

Stunning work in excellent state of preservation, it is the same also shown on this Strad poster : http://www.orpheusmusicshop.com/posters/P133.html

although the color of this poster is somewhat wrong, too reddish orange.

The "Stauffer" is clearly all Gerolamo (Hieronymus) whereas the 1620 is to me his young son Niccolò especially in the carving of the head and the short purfling mitres.

Bruce

[Davide Sora]

The "Stauffer" is clearly all Gerolamo (Hieronymus) whereas the 1620 is to me his young son Niccolò especially in the carving of the head and the short purfling mitres.

Bruce

 

Thanks for the suggestion, something to think about the next time I go to see the two violas (I had given only a quick look on the day of the presentation )

Knowing what to look for helps to better understand this kind of things.

 

Davide

[Michael_Molnar]

I received "The Girolamo Amati Viola in the Galleria Estense: Treasures of Italian Violin Making 1".

 

What an incredible book.  I referred to it here. I ordered my copy from Brigitte Brandmair (brigitte.brandmair(at)googlemail.com).

 

Anyone who wants to make an Amati viola must have this.  This viola is in excellent condition and is worth copying. The book's information about structure, shape, dimensions, varnish, and history is very thorough. The color photos are sharp and masterfully printed. A DVD with the photographs is included. Moreover, it is in English.

 

The book with DVD cost me $114 plus $20 shipping. This is well worth the price.

 

Mike

[Davide Sora]

I also bought this book directly from Elisa Scrollavezza (Scrollavezza & Zanré) when there was the presentation at the Museo del Violino here in Cremona.

Superb work!! The Ct scans on book and DVD are astonishing for quality and definition (70 times more defined than "normal" CT scans)

Definitely recommended.

[Will L]

The point that del Gesu's Fs are reminiscent makes me think there is no reason why a maker might not become inspired by some feature in a painting.  Was this painting of St. Cecile located where Cremonese makers could have seen it?  

[Jim Bress]

I received "The Girolamo Amati Viola in the Galleria Estense: Treasures of Italian Violin Making 1".

 

What an incredible book.  I referred to it here. I ordered my copy from Brigitte Brandmair (brigitte.brandmair(at)googlemail.com).

 

Anyone who wants to make an Amati viola must have this.  This viola is in excellent condition and is worth copying. The book's information about structure, shape, dimensions, varnish, and history is very thorough. The color photos are sharp and masterfully printed. A DVD with the photographs is included. Moreover, it is in English.

 

The book with DVD cost me $114 plus $20 shipping. This is well worth the price.

 

Mike

I bought the book direct from Elisa Scrollavezza as well.  Absolutely love the book and will likely base my first viola on the Estense Amati viola.  The section on ground and pretreatment raised more questions for me than answers.  Maybe if I had The Brandmair book things would be clearer, but that book is a bit out of my reach for moment.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

The point that del Gesu's Fs are reminiscent makes me think there is no reason why a maker might not become inspired by some feature in a painting.  Was this painting of St. Cecile located where Cremonese makers could have seen it?  

Notice how low the bridge is. 

[Davide Sora]

In fairness it, I would say that the book "Treasures of italian violin making" on Girolamo Amati viola, as well as by the aforementioned Elisa Scrollavezza and Brigitte Brandmair, is also sold by Jan Rohrmann (the excellent photographer) and also at the Museo del Violino  bookshop here in Cremona.
Not to advertise to anyone in particular......

[Urban Luthier]

I received "The Girolamo Amati Viola in the Galleria Estense: Treasures of Italian Violin Making 1".

 

What an incredible book.  I referred to it here. I ordered my copy from Brigitte Brandmair (brigitte.brandmair(at)googlemail.com).

I share your enthusiasm. I have a copy as well and even made a tracing of the rib outline in AutoCAD to create a mould. I can tell you the instrument is almost perfectly symmetrical! I would post the drawing but I don't want to break any copyright rules.

[j15310]

I share your enthusiasm. I have a copy as well and even made a tracing of the rib outline in AutoCAD to create a mould. I can tell you the instrument is almost perfectly symmetrical! I would post the drawing but I don't want to break any copyright rules.

 

cremonatools seems of have  the mould :

 

http://www.cremonatools.com/the-girolamo-amati-viola-in-the-galleria-estense-forma-e-quinte-per-la-costruzione-dello-strumento.html

 

they also have the book

 

http://www.cremonatools.com/the-girolamo-amati-viola-in-the-galleria-estense.html

[Urban Luthier]

At 183 euro you can see why I opted to make my own and not to purchase the mould with the book! The book is fantastic by the way. Highly recommended