Surviving works from Andrea Amati

[francoisdenis]

Hi François,

 

I might have some measurements but I am going to have to look for them. It may take some time. I'm not as organised as I would like to be.

 

Bruce

that would be great

[Michael Appleman]

François mentioning homothetic transformation calls up images of tracing a shadow from a single light source.

[Zorzi]

This thread should be added to the pinned reference section. So much useful information!

[Rick Hyslop]

Also, the vertical termination of the corners are another small feature that puts it more towards Gaspar than other possibilities. It's difficult (and probably not very helpful to try) to write all my impressions, but those stick out especially.

 

Hey there Ben. I want to better understand what you mean about the corners. Can you elaborate or perhaps you even have a pic which can further illustrate what you mean.

 

I know you said it was a small feature but I am just curious to know more.

 

r.

[bcncello]

Hi Rick,

 

No, not naive at all. I was only saying that today there is no trace of a through neck. Many Brescian instruments have had the corner blocks and linings added later by someone who decided they knew more and "improved" it.

 

All I have to go on are some mediocre x-ray images and some very grainy endoscope photographs. This is why I use the word "appear" so much.

 

Bruce

 

I re-read yesterday an article about the origins of the violin written by organologist Christian Rault. It is interesting how he discusses about the many architectural and thecnological features of the violin and when are they supposed to appear in time.

 

There's also a 17th century painter, Bartolomeo Bettera who did a lot of still life with instruments, many baroque violins there, some with just two corners, most with a through neck...who knows how were they structuraly inside.

 

BTW Christian Rault does some suggestion about the origins of Andrea Amati taking into account that the surname 'Amat' is of catalonian origin. I have no problem with that, but if by some found texts, Andrea's father name was Gothardo it seems rather odd that they could had moved to Italy from Catalonia, although a supposed migration of the family could have happened some generations earlier.

 

In fact, and according to some recent reading I did, the expulsion of the jew populations in Spain began earlier tan 1492. Actualy when the spanish court formerly ordered it, only a low percentage of the inital jews where still on the iberian peninsula.

Edited September 5, 2014 by bcncello

[Ben Hebbert]

BTW Christian Rault does some suggestion about the origins of Andrea Amati taking into account that the surname 'Amat' is of catalonian origin. I have no problem with that, but if by some found texts, Andrea's father name was Gothardo it seems rather odd that they could had moved to Italy from Catalonia, although a supposed migration of the family could have happened some generations earlier.

 

In fact, and according to some recent reading I did, the expulsion of the jew populations in Spain began earlier tan 1492. Actualy when the spanish court formerly ordered it, only a low percentage of the inital jews where still on the iberian peninsula.

 

 

At the risk of sending a torpedo through Rault's entire AMAT hypothesis, all of the original labels of Andrea's instruments are actually inscribed ANDREA AMADI - in roman letters, manuscript and typically in vermillion ink which fades to be next to invisible over time. "ANDREA AMADI IN / CREMONA MDLXXiiij" I doubt any of us known very much about 16th century Cremonese or Hispano-Cremonese dialect.. This may have no bearing on his thesis, may support it further, or may sink it. I believe that the last of his labels is that in the 1574 in the NMM, and by the time of the earliest printed brother's Amati label, the form "Antonius et Hieronymus Fr. Amati / Cremonen Andrea fil F.15..".  It should thereupon be noted that Andrea's labels are in Italian, but Amati (plural) and Amatus (singular) labels are all written in Latin. It would be interesting to know when this change comes about in archival sources.

 

[Just to be pedantic, Amati could also be Italian, but not in the sense of brother's labels, as Stradivari (Italian / Lat.Plural) is to Straduarius (latin) as it appears in his labels.]

 

- I'm somewhat flumuxed by Rault's general thesis. For a start, he surely isn't suggesting on the evidence of Mersenne "not" mentioning the bassbar in 1636, that Stradivari invented it? 

[Omobono]

This thread should be added to the pinned reference section. So much useful information!

Gets my vote.

[Omobono]

I think Rault has some interesting ideas, however at the risk of sending a torpedo through his entire AMAT hypothesis, all of the original labels of Andrea's instruments are actually inscribed ANDREA AMADI - in roman letters, manuscript and typically in vermillion ink which fades to be next to invisible over time. "ANDREA AMADI IN / CREMONA MDLXXiiij" I doubt any of us known very much about 16th century Cremonese or Hispano-Cremonese dialect.. This may have no bearing on his thesis, may support it further, or may sink it. I believe that the last of his labels is that in the 1574 in the NMM, and by the time of the earliest printed brother's Amati label, the form "Antonius et Hieronymus Fr. Amati / Cremonen Andrea fil F.15..".  It should thereupon be noted that Andrea's labels are in Italian, but Amati (plural) and Amatus (singular) labels are all written in Latin. It would be interesting to know when this change comes about in archival sources.

 

[Just to be pedantic, Amati could also be Italian, but not in the sense of brother's labels, as Stradivari (Italian / Lat.Plural) is to Straduarius (latin) as it appears in his labels.]

This may be of little scholarly value but for what it's worth:

 

http://www.houseofnames.com/amati-family-crest?a=54323-224

 

Spelling variations of this family name include: Amato, Amati, Amat,

      Amata, D'Amato, Amado, Amatucci and many more.

      First found in both northern and southern Italy, as Amati and Amato

      respectively. The surname Amato was, and is, quite common on the southern

      island region of Sicily, while Amati is common further north, in Campania,

      and Emilia-Romagna.

[Ben Hebbert]

Hey there Ben. I want to better understand what you mean about the corners. Can you elaborate or perhaps you even have a pic which can further illustrate what you mean.

 

I know you said it was a small feature but I am just curious to know more.

 

r.

 

Hope that the attached illustration makes a bit of sense of what I am saying - especially the lower corners. All corners are - more or less - upright. This is certainly also the case of the Ashmolean viola which is in really wonderfully pure condition. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker - if it's not there it doesn't mean it's not a da Salo, but if it is there it's a strong indicator. Of course most are too rubbed away or otherwise wrecked to be of any real help.

[Rick Hyslop]

Hope that the attached illustration makes a bit of sense of what I am saying - especially the lower corners. All corners are - more or less - upright. This is certainly also the case of the Ashmolean viola which is in really wonderfully pure condition. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker - if it's not there it doesn't mean it's not a da Salo, but if it is there it's a strong indicator. Of course most are too rubbed away or otherwise wrecked to be of any real help.

Thanks Ben. Yes, I can see the "verticality" in the corners and I understand what you meant now. It is quite pronounced.

 

Cheers.

 

r.

[Ben Hebbert]

 

I also noted homotheties between forms of Brescia and Cremona those (attached the outline of tenor Andrea Amati is compared to that of a viola by Gasparo after being reduced to the same size, it appears that forms are basically the same).

A large study remains to be done

 

 

Francois,

 

From what you know do you think...

 

1) Gaspar had access to, and copied an Amati instrument's outline

 

2) Gaspar had enough knowledge of Amati's work to use the same design principles

 

3) Gaspar employed his own geometric scheme, producing an instrument that is similar but fundamentally different (in minor details only obvious in geometric analysis) to Amati's work.  - I note your use of the word "basically"

 

4) Is it too early in your research to give us a clear picture?

 

Very many thanks

[Omobono]

Hope that the attached illustration makes a bit of sense of what I am saying - especially the lower corners. All corners are - more or less - upright. This is certainly also the case of the Ashmolean viola which is in really wonderfully pure condition. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker - if it's not there it doesn't mean it's not a da Salo, but if it is there it's a strong indicator. Of course most are too rubbed away or otherwise wrecked to be of any real help.

Ben, Your illustration makes for an interesting comparison with this one of the Messiah with regard to the orientation of those corners:

 

[Rick Hyslop]

Hello there.

 

I am wondering since da Salo is also one of our earliest violin makers, how many of his works are known to exist ? Wikipedia says 80. Is that about right ? If so, it is a surprising amount compared to Amati.

 

On another note. I am surprised by the C bouts of the Ole Bull. They seem quite closed in comparison to other da Salos I am seeing as I look around the internet on the Tarisio/Cozio site for example. His violas seem to be more closed but the violins more open. Why would that even be the case ? Then there are the C bouts of his student Maggini which are very open and almost viol like, more similar what I have seen in the other da Salo violins I could find.

 

How could the Ole Bull be so much different. Are there other da Salo examples which have similar C bouts ?

 

EDIT: I started a seperate topic regarding the Adam vs Gordon question. I didn't want to mess up the flow here.

To complicate things further, as a result of my searching I am confused by which da Salo viola is the Adam and which is the Gordon on the Cozio site.

 

Sorry if this takes the thread off topic, but the information here has inspired me and taken me off on what might be a tangent.

 

Cheers.

 

r.

[francoisdenis]

Francois,

 

From what you know do you think...

 

1) Gaspar had access to, and copied an Amati instrument's outline

 

2) Gaspar had enough knowledge of Amati's work to use the same design principles

 

3) Gaspar employed his own geometric scheme, producing an instrument that is similar but fundamentally different (in minor details only obvious in geometric analysis) to Amati's work.  - I note your use of the word "basically"

 

4) Is it too early in your research to give us a clear picture?

 

Very many thanks

These are good questions.

Since this is a homothesie it is not accurate to speak of copy but Gasparo could have copied a smaller model Andrea and in this case, the Gasparo will indirectly reflect an unknown little version of the Andrea's tenor . But, numerous craftsmen at that time were still using  these

systems of relative measurements. Most likely, none of this two makers has invented the framework of this shape because this kind of proportional recipes definitely pre-existed for a long time. . 

For me, these homothesie raises the question of the type of construction used. Brescia have maybe used partial molds to bent the very thick ribs  and it is the exterior measurements that are taken in account in the construction whereas at Cremona the use of a complet inside form lead to apply the proportionnal measurements to the form itself (rather than the complete instrument with the edges). 

I have some clues that indicate that Andrea may have been responsible for this change.

[Ben Hebbert]

Hello there.

 

I am wondering since da Salo is also one of our earliest violin makers, how many of his works are known to exist ? Wikipedia says 80. Is that about right ? If so, it is a surprising amount compared to Amati.

 

 

Rick,

 

There's a lot that we don't know about and can only really speculate upon. Frankly I think 80 is a significant underestimate about the number of da Salo instruments that exist in the world.

 

However, here is the letter sent from Fr. Micanzo in Venice to Galilleo on December 5th 1637. It says it all really...

 

Concerning the violin which your nephew on passing through here wishes to buy, I have spoken to the Musical Director of the Concerts of St Mark's, who tells me that I can easily find Brescian violins, but that those of Cremona are incomparably the better - in fact, they represent the non plu ultra; and by the medium of the Cremonese Signor Monteverdi, Chapel-Master of St Mark's who has a nephew living in Cremona, I have given the order for a violin to be sent here. The difference in the price will show you the superiority, for those of Cremona cost at the lowest twelve ducats each, whilst the others (Brescian) can be had for less than four ducates. As your nephew is in the service of His Highness of Bavaria, I think he will prefer by far the one ordered to be sent to Venice as soon as possible...

 

In the same correspondence a "superlative old one" i.e. Cremonese violin cost two ducats more, that is fourteen.

 

Brescia was an incredibly important center for instrument making long before the appearance of the violin. Letters from Isabella d'Este refer specifically to her instrument makers there in the 1490s. The difference, as elucidated by Micanzo seems to be one of quality, and that is certainly a factor in surviving instruments. The Ole Bull is of fantastic quality and depending upon how you quantify it, is arguably more accomplished (in terms of decorated head, profuse purfling) than anythign from Cremona. It's a shallow argument but a valid one. Yet other Brescian things are of less of a quality. It's often very tricky to differentiate quality in old instruments, because its difficult to look past the restorations, but clearly there were very cheap things being produced there too. Take the viola in the Ashmolean by da Salo, whose head is clearly very quick and roughly finished work. The cittern (also there) is also very plain work, especially when compared to the other Brescian cittern (by Girolamo Virchi) which is of the same period.

 

The supposition has to be that Brescia took the majority of its market from larger scale production at lower costs than Cremona, which is why even in 1637 they could be a quarter of the price or even less. But that also means that they produced in higher quanitity - all basic Economics 101.

 

This obviously asks the question of whether da Salo was a single maker, or the master of a large workshop. I think it's important to consider this question against the very small handfuls of other instruments by other known Brescian makers, such as Peregrino and Zanetto di Micheli (see here) or Giovanni Rodiani, as well as others such as Mariani in Pesaro (if real), Antonio Brensi in Bologna, and Zuan Maria di Brescia in Venice. I think that this disparity makes a very good numbers case for da Salo being at the head of a huge workshop producing lots of instruments. After all, an estimate of 80 surviving instruments by da Salo, is more than treble the entire known surviving output of all other violin makers who worked in Brescia in the 16th century.

 

Earlier on this thread, the hypothesis of Shephardic Jewish instrument makers expelled from Spain was muted. The hypothesis, which I think is first looked at with any seriousness in Ian Woodfield's History of the Viol is certainly very valid for the huge changes in northern Italian instrument making and music that are witnessed in the decades immediately after 1492. In fact, Isabella d'Este wrote to Lorenzo di Pavia, her agent in December 1495 asking him to order viols from Brescian makers, but adding "Remember to make the body in Spanish manner without giving anything of the Italian fashion". Very good evidence for the increasing demand of Spanish-influenced instruments, and for the ability of Brescian makers to produce them. However, one of the issues that I've never really been able to reconcile concerns the use of violins and other stringed instruments within the church, or within the courts of people for whom Christian spiritual purity would have seemed essential.

 

It seems to me that any ideas that I harbour about potential sixteenth-century religiosity also fits with hypothesis about the market: Did a preference for making instruments by Christian instrument makers provide an enormous commercial advantage over Jewish makers at the time? If so, this may explain why the Amatis as a single family were able to get themselves in a position where they could ask enormous premiums for instruments. In a slightly different environment, this may also suggest that Gaspar da Salo was able to win orders for instruments and produce large numbers of them at a time when his Brescian competitors appear to have been unable to - possibly giving him more work, possibly even enabling him to hire Jewish craftsmen to produce work for orders that they would otherwise be unlikely to win. It's true that northen Italy didn't have the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, but the Spanish Inquisition could never have existed without a general climate in Catholic Europe that promoted and accepted the attitudes which they took to an extreme. I stress that there is no significant evidence to support this speculation, but there is very little evidence also to support Woodfield's hypothesis. I also stress that this remains only as speculation. I have strong doubts that any hard evidence will come to light to support either hypothesis, it's just not the kind of information that history recorded.

 

Lastly, I wrote a chapter for the Gaspar da Salo: Architetto del Suono book which looks at a lot of evidence for foreign trade of Brescian instruments in the 16th century - the English original is available online here: Brescia: Influences and Influence in England and Spain

[Bruce Carlson]

Earlier on this thread, the hypothesis of Shephardic Jewish instrument makers expelled from Spain was muted. The hypothesis, which I think is first looked at with any seriousness in Ian Woodfield's History of the Viol is certainly very valid for the huge changes in northern Italian instrument making and music that are witnessed in the decades immediately after 1492. In fact, Isabella d'Este wrote to Lorenzo di Pavia, her agent in December 1495 asking him to order viols from Brescian makers, but adding "Remember to make the body in Spanish manner without giving anything of the Italian fashion". Very good evidence for the increasing demand of Spanish-influenced instruments, and for the ability of Brescian makers to produce them. However, one of the issues that I've never really been able to reconcile concerns the use of violins and other stringed instruments within the church, or within the courts of people for whom Christian spiritual purity would have seemed essential.

 

Hi Ben,

 

So then Saint Catherine de'Vigri (b.1413 d.1463) who was born at Bologna but raised and educated at the court of Ferrara (Este) who later moved to a convent in Bologna was playing an instrument in the Italian style like this? Do you think this what Isabella d'Este was referring to as the Italian fashion?

 

Bruce

 

[Rick Hyslop]

Wow Ben that is a lot of very interesting information. Lately I have been trying to read as much as I can on the subject of Brescian instruments. So, I think I may have already found and read your chapter in Gaspar da Salo: Architetto del Suono since my last post, but I will have a look at that link. It can hardly do me any ill to read it again, if I remember correctly it was packed with information and would certainly deserve a second or third read.

 

I have a bunch of questions but I need to research some of them first including reading/re-reading your chapter and then see if any of them are answered.

 

Cheers.

 

r.

[Ben Hebbert]

Bruce,

 

(For other people's benefit:) The expulsion of Jews from Spain took place in 1492, with the union of Aragon & Castille and their pushing out of anyone who wasn't Christian from the area of modern spain. It was mainly a clearing of the Moors, but with that, anyone who wasn't Christian wasn't welcome. The general hypothesis which I think Woodfield takes credit for, is that as many of them travelled to northern Italy where they were not persecuted (persecution/tolerance are finely nuanced words with variable meanings at different times), their arrival coincides with the break in music from the late medieval to the Renaissance. Therefore, it is the mixture of Italian and Spainsh ideas that develops this new kind of music. I don't think it's that simplistic, for a start, it's a fairly typically narrow musicologists view which doesn't ask fundamental questions about what was happening in other forms of culture at the same time - Leonardo da Vinci in painting for example. But I don't think it is without credit either, as part of a general view of what was going on. Certainly Isabella d'Este's interest in Spanish instruments emerges shortly before 1495.

 

Therefore, the Catarina de Vigri instrument substantially predates this. The question which emerges however, is what exactly the Italian style is supposed to mean (and I don't have access to the original old Italian, which may be translated without nuance anyway). Certainly paintings of 15th century instruments show a variety. Perhaps it's cleverer to turn Isabella's statement around. She wanted the instruments to look completely Spanish, and unrecognisable in any way as Italian. - so as long as they have no traits that look Italian they would be Spanish. (That'll be another post... if anyone wants to go further into it)

 

Incidentally, in my Brescia article, linked again, I've put forward my case that the unidentified (formerly Venetian, now speculatively Russo) viol in the Ashmolean, is in fact Spanish (the two are). Call me mad as a box of frogs, but I'm strongly convinced of my evidence. The viol by da Salo that looks like it, but also exactly like the one in the famous (Spanish) el Greco altarpiece for the Colegio de Donna Aragon, and perhaps more importantly than the viol, the virginals is an example of the newest work from the time from Milan, so the likelihood of the viol also being Italian is high. Quite amazingly, the provenance of the da Salo is that it was found in the storerooms of Burgos Cathedral in Spain. I found masses of contemporaneous evidence for the Spanish importing instruments from Northern Italy.So, amazingly a case of da Salo producing works in the Spanish style for the Spanish market.We can progress this argument a little further, and suggest that Raphael's St Cecilia may have a broken "Spanish Viol" at her feet - the painting was commissioned in 1513 for a church in Bologna. (I hadn't gone that far in my article because I hadn't thought of it then), because it is constructionally similar (outside linings, basic shape) to both. Raphael painted the portrait of Isabella d'Este, so there is a link there at least.

 

Why could this concievably be the case? The answer that I think is important is that da Salo was able to take traditional forms of musical instrument that had been made more-or-less empirically, without real attention to form, and reassert the designs according to his mastery of geometry and architecture. Few others were able to do this and according to the developing ideas in renaissance thought and education, the idea that instruments accorded to geometrical and proportional schemes, just as music itself did - with musical proportions being the key to the universe and everything within it (Harmonia Mundi etc.) it was deeply compelling and appealing to the Renaissance mind.

 

Attached:

Russo viol (identical to the one in the Ashmolean, see my article for my thoughts on Russo, therefore also Spanish)

 

Guadalupe Vihuela (with identical inlayed panels, possibly in the style of "the Moor of Zaragoza".

 

St Cecilia stamping on a Spanish-style viol in Spain by Raphael 1513.

 

El Greco Annunciation, painted around 1596 (there are three versions of it, all with the same viol).

 

The Ashmolean Spanish viol

 

The Ashmolean da Salo in the Spanish style.

[Omobono]

The answer that I think is important is that da Salo was able to take traditional forms of musical instrument that had been made more-or-less empirically, without real attention to form, and reassert the designs according to his mastery of geometry and architecture. 

Wonderful ideas. I just saw this snippet in a reference yesterday when looking up the violas for Rick.

"The instruments of Gasparo rarely have the same dimensions, being explained by the fact that they were constructed in response to private 'commissions(?)' (and as such represent the specific wishes of his clients, as well as the fact that they were modified to optimize their quality). In each case the maker was more concerned with their acoustic properties than the aesthetic aspect."

 

II mondo della viola

- Samuele Danese (2005, P. 52)

[Omobono]

I think 80 is a significant underestimate about the number of da Salo instruments that exist in the world.

I was a bit surprised to read that but follow your reasoning.

[Ben Hebbert]

I was a bit surprised to read that but follow your reasoning.

I think most of my reasoning was that I'm pretty sure I could count more than thirty I know of without searching for sources. Since no one has done a systematic search of da Salo instruments, as they have for Strad or del Gesu, it would be unlikely that I could think of nearly half of those in existence...

[Omobono]

Since no one has done a systematic search of da Salo instruments, as they have for Strad or del Gesu, it would be unlikely that I could think of nearly half of those in existence...

Ben, What would be your "guesstimate" on the number of Maggini extant?

[Rick Hyslop]

Ben, in re-reading your chapter I came upon this quote by the Bolognese doctor, Leonardo Fioravanti:

 
"Ingenious men, those who are rare in any profession could not become esteemed if it were not for the fact that they knew and worked with varied and diverse materials. He who would be esteemed in the art of musical instrument making must firstly be a painter in order to know how to design the form of the instruments; secondly he must be a Smith in order to make tools to proportion his art; thirdly he must be a Master Wood Worker in order to make the mechanics of the instrument; fourth, he must be a Musician in order to make well the proportions of the voicing, the consonants of the instruments; lastly he should be an Alchemist in order to know the preparation of the metals with which to make the strings as he must know the metals also to make the organpipes … He who would discover everything in his art would discover a multitude of diverse things, as if it were an deluge and would never ever find an end, much and deep and of great practice and science it is."

 

I really like this !

 

r.

[Conor Russell]

This is a fascinating thread, thank you all very much.

 

I have some questions about Brescian  construction that I hope you might answer. In the instruments with the backs hollowed right to the edge, and the blocks (neck?) fitted to the hollow, how were the fronts treated? What other schools used this construction method?

 

I ask because I have a violin here made that way. I don't think it's very ancient, nor do I think it's Brescian. It has a very unusual thicknessing pattern too. I'll try to post photos later.

[Rick Hyslop]

Ben, I have a few questions. I hope that it is okay with everyone here to continue in this Brescian vein, I think that there has been some crossover and so it seems relevant.

 

Rick,

 

There's a lot that we don't know about and can only really speculate upon. Frankly I think 80 is a significant underestimate about the number of da Salo instruments that exist in the world.

 

However, here is the letter sent from Fr. Micanzo in Venice to Galilleo on December 5th 1637. It says it all really...

 

Concerning the violin which your nephew on passing through here wishes to buy, I have spoken to the Musical Director of the Concerts of St Mark's, who tells me that I can easily find Brescian violins, but that those of Cremona are incomparably the better - in fact, they represent the non plu ultra; and by the medium of the Cremonese Signor Monteverdi, Chapel-Master of St Mark's who has a nephew living in Cremona, I have given the order for a violin to be sent here. The difference in the price will show you the superiority, for those of Cremona cost at the lowest twelve ducats each, whilst the others (Brescian) can be had for less than four ducates. As your nephew is in the service of His Highness of Bavaria, I think he will prefer by far the one ordered to be sent to Venice as soon as possible...

 

In the same correspondence a "superlative old one" i.e. Cremonese violin cost two ducats more, that is fourteen.

If this letter is written in 1637, it would mean that the instruments referred to as coming from Cremona could only have been made by a handful of makers wouldn't it ? Nicolo Amati and...  Who do you think these makers would have been and at the same time in Brescia who could we expect to be making instruments ?

 

I also have a question regarding the concept of da Salo having a workforce under him to assist in the production of instruments. Are there any remains that are thought to be from his workshop that would point to the possibility of this such as patterns, molds etc ? Am I correct in understanding that the Brescian method was at most using a partial mold ? (C bouts I would guess ). Would there be records showing him as an employer or occupying a large space. If not and you are correct then perhaps it was cottage type wokers who would supply him ?


Lastly, is there a good text on Brescian violin construction that you would reccomend. The concept of construction is one that I am very interested in right now, not only for ID purposes but also from the standpoint of making instruments.

Cheers.



r.