Help identifying 2 Violins and a Bow

[K123]

I would appreciate some help regarding the following 2 violins.

 

VIOLIN 1:

 

Label: Otto Viener in Mittenwalt an der Iser 19(49)   -   the 49 is written in.

One piece back.

2 piece bottom rib construction

The fluting doesnt go in to the VERY end of the violin scroll.

 

Anyone know if this "Otto Viener" was an individual maker or is it just a label used by someone who sold imported violins? Any idea if this violin was made in Mittenwalt? I have my doubts, due to the scroll fluting not going in till the very end. Maybe he was someone who imported violins from other areas and placed his own label?

 

Photos: Please keep in mind the lighting is very bad. The violin is more orange colored than the "redness" which appears in the photos. I can try to take better pictures tomorrow in better light should it be nessicary.

 

See first reply for VIOLIN 2.

[K123]

VIOLIN 2:

 

No label

One piece back

One piece bottom rib construction

4 real corner blocks

Fluting stops rather early

Glued in bass bar

 

This violin, in need of major repairs, was one that I bought recently as a total fixer uper. Will see how it goes... Im not sure of the origin of this one. I was thinking Mittenwalt when I bought it, due to the beestings, 1 piece bottom rib construction, and the corner blocks, but the fluting doesnt go all the way into the throat of the violin, which eliminates Mittenwalt (If Im correct). Is this the usual Dutzenarbeid Schonbach/Saxon violin? Or could it be something else?

[K123]

VIOLIN BOW:

 

Violin bow branded "Bausch". I think this is the usual German factory bow. Any reason to think otherwise? Even if this is just the usual, It will make a good playing bow. Nice and light, and the bow is straight. Will definitely rehair it.

[K123]

Any ideas?

[Violadamore]

1. That's Mittenwald 

2. Mittenwald 1949 along with two piece bottom bout ribs suggests #1 could have come from a relocated Schonbacher.  A number were resettled there before Bubenreuth was built.  They started cranking out Saxon style violins using power tools, to the scandal of the natives.  I've noticed that blacking the pegbox seems to have stopped in Germany by the post WW 2 period, and is now a characteristic of some Chinese fiddles, BTW.  The maker's name rings no bells with me, maybe Jacob S. knows something about him.

#2 looks Mittenwald to me.  As Jacob S. has often told us, don't put too much faith in single characteristics.

Nice cheap German bow  .

[Jacob]

Your violin #1 has the "squeezed together" rib mitres which suggest an on-the-back construction without an interior mold and corner blocks. That, as well as the fluting in the throat and the two-piece bottom rib to me very strongly suggest a Saxon or Bohemian instrument.

 

One corner photo of the #2 Mittenwald clearly shows the difference, with the rib section from the upper bout cutting across the bevelled c-bout rib end, so that the rib mitre from the outside shows only the butt of the upper rib bout, instead of the two bevelled points one sees with the Saxon method.

[K123]

 

1. That's Mittenwald 
2. Mittenwald 1949 along with two piece bottom bout ribs suggests #1 could have come from a relocated Schonbacher.  A number were resettled there before Bubenreuth was built.  They started cranking out Saxon style violins using power tools, to the scandal of the natives.  I've noticed that blacking the pegbox seems to have stopped in Germany by the post WW 2 period, and is now a characteristic of some Chinese fiddles, BTW.  The maker's name rings no bells with me, maybe Jacob S. knows something about him.
3. #2 looks Mittenwald to me.  As Jacob S. has often told us, don't put too much faith in single characteristics.
4. Nice cheap German bow  .

 

 

Thank you very much. Sorry I keep misspelling "Mittenwald"

 

# 1: I wonder if it is from an individual maker. It does look different from the usual violins I get. The pegbox isnt blacked out like what I usually see. I also wonder when the ebony crown was put in... I don't see a repair label inside. Maybe there is something written on the top.

 

I carved a new bridge yesterday, and installed a new set of pegs, strung it up with new Dominants with Pirastro E string, and it sounds absolutely amazing. Im very pleased with the violin. (When I got it, the bridge was glued to the top.......... luckily not strong glue, more like a gooey type.

 

# 2: I think I recall Jacob S saying if the scroll goes anything but till the very end, its not Mittenwald. (Please pardon me if Im wrong here)

 

 

Your violin #1 has the "squeezed together" rib mitres which suggest an on-the-back construction without an interior mold and corner blocks. That, as well as the fluting in the throat and the two-piece bottom rib to me very strongly suggest a Saxon or Bohemian instrument.

 

One corner photo of the #2 Mittenwald clearly shows the difference, with the rib section from the upper bout cutting across the bevelled c-bout rib end, so that the rib mitre from the outside shows only the butt of the upper rib bout, instead of the two bevelled points one sees with the Saxon method.

 

Thank you Jacob. Appreciate your input. Do you think the date on the label is accurate?

[Jacob]

Thank you very much. Sorry I keep misspelling "Mittenwald"

 

# 1: I wonder if it is from an individual maker. It does look different from the usual violins I get. The pegbox isnt blacked out like what I usually see. I also wonder when the ebony crown was put in... I don't see a repair label inside. Maybe there is something written on the top.

 

I carved a new bridge yesterday, and installed a new set of pegs, strung it up with new Dominants with Pirastro E string, and it sounds absolutely amazing. Im very pleased with the violin. (When I got it, the bridge was glued to the top.......... luckily not strong glue, more like a gooey type.

 

# 2: I think I recall Jacob S saying if the scroll goes anything but till the very end, its not Mittenwald. (Please pardon me if Im wrong here)

 

 

 

Thank you Jacob. Appreciate your input. Do you think the date on the label is accurate?

If I'm correct with that instrument being a Saxon violin, the label is entirely meaningless. But I'm pretty certain that the violin would have been made somewhere between 30 and 50 years before the date on the label. By 1949 many ethnic German makers from the Schönbach region had relocated to Bubenreuth area (such as Karl Höfner/Paesold), and their mass-produced wares (which is what this violin is) don't look like this any more.

 

The Mittenwald thing is a total red herring, it's only on the label, not in the violin.

[K123]

If I'm correct with that instrument being a Saxon violin, the label is entirely meaningless. But I'm pretty certain that the violin would have been made somewhere between 30 and 50 years before the date on the label.

 

The Mittenwald thing is a total red herring, it's only on the label, not in the violin.

 

This is what I thought aswell. Im wondering at what point the label was inserted though, and by whom.

[Violadamore]

If I'm correct with that instrument being a Saxon violin, the label is entirely meaningless. But I'm pretty certain that the violin would have been made somewhere between 30 and 50 years before the date on the label. By 1949 many ethnic German makers from the Schönbach region had relocated to Bubenreuth area (such as Karl Höfner/Paesold), and their mass-produced wares (which is what this violin is) don't look like this any more.

 

The Mittenwald thing is a total red herring, it's only on the label, not in the violin.

I beg to differ.  Consult the 1956 New Yorker article "A Spray Gun For The Varnish" by Joseph Wechsburg and previous MN threads on this subject.  The Sudetendeutsch from Schonbach were first sent to Mittenwald after their expulsion from Czechoslovakia because what would become the West German government thought that, being violinmakers, they would all get along.  Instead, the major differences in working traditions led to friction between the two groups.  While most Schonbachers moved on to Bubenreuth when that was founded by refugees from Saxony, not only were they working in Mittenwald for several years, but a few founded small factories and stayed on, continuing to make Saxon style fiddles labeled as from Mittenwald.  The native making tradition in Mittenwald had nearly died out by the postwar period, and has only been preserved with a great deal of effort, much like folk crafts in the USA.

[Blank face]

Reg. violin #1 I would agree with Jacob, that it is most probably a pre-war Schönbach violin and the label is from a repairer, a dealer or meaningless at all. I never heard or read it before, but that doesn't mean so much, because there are so many names involved in this area. Maybe you should ask the Mittenwald Geigenbaumuseum (or the Markneukirchen museum), if they have ever heard it. The ebony crown could be an evidence for a reset or replacement of the neck (although the scroll matches very good the style of the body).

With violin #2 I'm also suspecting, that the neck and scroll aren't original, especially the scroll does look younger, revarnished and not Mittenwald-ish at all, while the (dead) body is a typical late 19th century Mittenwald "Verleger" violin in all aspects.

With all due respect, I'm doubting that there is any sense in trying to restore it, if you don't have too much time to waste or in a need for worthless training object - every possible damage is done to the poor instrument, including a trial to burn it and let the ashes rest in peace.

[K123]

With all due respect, I'm doubting that there is any sense in trying to restore it, if you don't have too much time to waste or in a need for worthless training object - every possible damage is done to the poor instrument, including a trial to burn it and let the ashes rest in peace.

 

Fortunately, I have plenty of time to waste.

 

I agree, it most likely is not worth the repairs, but this will be the biggest challenge restoration-wise I had to face, plus I should learn plenty from doing this.  

 

The quote "Kill it, Kill it with Fire!" Comes to mind. Seems someone attempted it on the bass bar.

[Jacob]

I beg to differ.  Consult the 1956 New Yorker article "A Spray Gun For The Varnish" by Joseph Wechsburg and previous MN threads on this subject.  The Sudetendeutsch from Schonbach were first sent to Mittenwald after their expulsion from Czechoslovakia because what would become the West German government thought that, being violinmakers, they would all get along.  Instead, the major differences in working traditions led to friction between the two groups.  While most Schonbachers moved on to Bubenreuth when that was founded by refugees from Saxony, not only were they working in Mittenwald for several years, but a few founded small factories and stayed on, continuing to make Saxon style fiddles labeled as from Mittenwald.  The native making tradition in Mittenwald had nearly died out by the postwar period, and has only been preserved with a great deal of effort, much like folk crafts in the USA.

Thanks for that info, very interesting and useful.

[Brad Dorsey]

Your violin #1 has the "squeezed together" rib mitres which suggest an on-the-back construction without an interior mold and corner blocks...

 

One corner photo of the #2 Mittenwald clearly shows the difference, with the rib section from the upper bout cutting across the bevelled c-bout rib end, so that the rib mitre from the outside shows only the butt of the upper rib bout, instead of the two bevelled points one sees with the Saxon method.

 

The rib mitres in #2 can be seen very easily because the top is off, but how can you see the rib mitres in #1?  Which picture of #1 shows the mitre the best, and in which corner?

 

I'm not disputing you; I'm just trying to understand.

[K123]

#1 seems to have corner blocks by looking through the F holes/end pin hole. Not sure if they are real blocks, or fake.

[Jacob]

The rib mitres in #2 can be seen very easily because the top is off, but how can you see the rib mitres in #1?  Which picture of #1 shows the mitre the best, and in which corner?

 

I'm not disputing you; I'm just trying to understand.

When you look at the second and fourth photos of violin #1, what do you see? What I don't see is the end of one rib section, cut off square. What I think I see is a much sharper point, the result of two rib ends, both bevelled on the inside, squeezed together. I also think I can make out the join between the two ends in a few places.

[Jacob]

#1 seems to have corner blocks by looking through the F holes/end pin hole. Not sure if they are real blocks, or fake.

The lower corners in a Saxon-type instrument mostly have faux corner blocks, because you can see them through the end-pin hole and f-holes, which isn't the case with the upper corners.

[K123]

The lower corners in a Saxon-type instrument mostly have faux corner blocks, because you can see them through the end-pin hole and f-holes, which isn't the case with the upper corners.

 

I can see one at the top left corner aswell. Cant see top right, as the bass bar blocks the way.

[K123]

Some new photos for Violin #1. Did some cleaning, a little touchup, new bridge, pegs, tailpiece, and chinrest. And strings. Sound is lovely. Loud, Even, and a full warm tone. The bridge is straight, it just appears a bit off on pictures due to the angle that the pictures was taken.

[Blank face]

Some new photos for Violin #1. Did some cleaning, a little touchup, new bridge, pegs, tailpiece, and chinrest. And strings. Sound is lovely. Loud, Even, and a full warm tone. The bridge is straight, it just appears a bit off on pictures due to the angle that the pictures was taken.

 

Nicely done, it seems clear to me now, that the violin has nothing to do with traditional Mittenwald work, but typical Mk/Schb. style.

It may be a matter of the perspective, but the neck angle appears to be a bit low (should be regulary 19-20 mm distance to the table from the upper edge of the fingeboard) and the fingerboard a bit too short (ca. 27 cm standard measure), what could be the result of an alteration of the neck. But if it's working fine, no reason to change it.