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Strange neck angle


Polk
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Hi Conor,

 

I presume your post is addressed to me.

 

In all honesty I was trying to come up with a terminology which would enable someone not indoctrined in the ways of violinmaking or a repair shop to understand clearly what we are talking about. This includes a certain number of people reading this Maestronet thread. If I take tilt or anti-tilt out of context with this thread then the terms become incomprehensible. Nothing more, nothing less. This is why I suggested using treble and bass.

 

Everyone is splitting hairs about every little detail and my intention was to point out to Jacob that it could have been said it in a clearer way by posing my question.

 

No-one has to do what I say or suggest but to read any more into than what it is on the surface I find unfortunate.

 

Bruce

No Bruce, It wasn't directed at you at all, I was just taking the mick and had to have dinner before I edited it out.

 

David. I must be misreading this whole debate, or else you are. The discussion started with a question about a VIOLIN, and some people questioned the practice of tilting the neck towards the players hand. Bringing in the cello set up is a red herring. Nobody ever suggested that all necks should be set level at all times. People are questioning the routine tilting of fingerboards as standard. 

 

Who is Humper?

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No Bruce, It wasn't directed at you at all, I was just taking the mick and had to have dinner before I edited it out.

 

David. I must be misreading this whole debate, or else you are. The discussion started with a question about a VIOLIN, and some people questioned the practice of tilting the neck towards the players hand. Bringing in the cello set up is a red herring.

There have been 451 posts since the original question, which have included violas and cellos, and it got pretty much off-topic by post number 4. What would you like to consider the main focus of this thread to be?

 

The post you last responded to had to do with a viable way of describing neck tilts. Whether or not you noticed the other thread I linked to early on, in which one poster said that their normal shop practice is to tilt violin necks lower on the bass side, do you think that "anti-tilt" is a sound and broadly applicable term for any of the various kinds of tilts which have been discussed?

Who really inserted the "red herring"?

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Conor,

I am trying to get to reasons one would tilt the fingerboard. Will anyone who normally does not tilt a fingerboard on a violin tilt it for any reason? If so, I would like to know what those reasons would be. As far as the rest of us, I am looking for observations from varying places and traditions to further explore reasons for tilt violin, viola, cello, and bass.....yes bass. We have added different tilt depending on French or German bow preference.

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No Bruce, It wasn't directed at you at all, I was just taking the mick and had to have dinner before I edited it out.

David. I must be misreading this whole debate, or else you are. The discussion started with a question about a VIOLIN, and some people questioned the practice of tilting the neck towards the players hand. Bringing in the cello set up is a red herring. Nobody ever suggested that all necks should be set level at all times. People are questioning the routine tilting of fingerboards as standard.

Who is Humper?

Wasn't it Brother Jake that brought up the cello red herring in post #68 as an argument against neck tilt?
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I have one violin that is a Strad copy from about 1900 (which I own and is not particularly valuable). It looks and sounds good, but has a strange neck angle. It's not the angle toward the bridge, but rather, the whole neck assembly is canted towards the treble side. The attached file is a simple drawing showing the back of theneck as viewed from the bridge. The neck itself is not twisted. This makes playing single notes on the E string a chore.

 

I've done neck resets a few times without problems, and it seems to me that's whats needed here. Any other ideas?

 

attachicon.gifneck.bmp

No.  Go with the neck reset.

 

OK, Jeffrey, now you can clean out what all's in between  B)  :lol:  :D  :P

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No.  Go with the neck reset.

 

OK, Jeffrey, now you can clean out what all's in between  B)  :lol:  :D  :P

Hang on. I suggested a possible (and much more conservative) alternative to a neck reset way back in post number 20. :lol:

 

And others have mentioned things like "fingerboard wedges" with one side higher, or making one edge of the fingerboard thicker than the other, which are also much more conservative than a neck reset.

 

But I can understand if things like that have been forgotten in the fray. ;)

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Ok, fine if you aren't bothered if anyone knows what you are talking about.

To give two exactly opposite concepts the same name, and then imagine to have caught me in a contradiction, seems pretty futile doesn't it?

 

 

Welcome to the English language. Regardless of what you are trying to achieve by using tilt, it is still a geometric term. Which means, thankfully, that anybody who understands what 'tilt' means will be able to grasp what a person means when they say 'tilt towards the g (or bass)' or 'tilt towards the e (or treble side)'.

 

Any other conglomeration which has been used here such as 'positive tilt' or 'anti-tilt' can be misleading. If you speak in terms of positive or negative, there needs to some indication as to what that means - which there isn't. Anti-tilt in any other circumstance would mean exactly what I described (something designed to prevent a tilt from occurring), or alternatively as David Burgess described (that being a particular aversion to use of tilt). Because a tilt one way or another is not conceptually different. A tilt, in ANY direction, is still the same concept - something not flat, rotated on a pivotal point. Boy would you have a hard time on AutoCAD.

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Welcome to the English language. Regardless of what you are trying to achieve by using tilt, it is still a geometric term. Which means, thankfully, that anybody who understands what 'tilt' means will be able to grasp what a person means when they say 'tilt towards the g (or bass)' or 'tilt towards the e (or treble side)'.

 

Any other conglomeration which has been used here such as 'positive tilt' or 'anti-tilt' can be misleading. If you speak in terms of positive or negative, there needs to some indication as to what that means - which there isn't. Anti-tilt in any other circumstance would mean exactly what I described (something designed to prevent a tilt from occurring), or alternatively as David Burgess described (that being a particular aversion to use of tilt). Because a tilt one way or another is not conceptually different. A tilt, in ANY direction, is still the same concept - something not flat, rotated on a pivotal point. Boy would you have a hard time on AutoCAD.

Edited..

http://www.easyautoads.co.uk/guides/wheels-tyres-brake-guides/camber/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330881-strange-neck-angle/page-15#entry640399

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edited...

 

Jacob, are you now suggesting that we use automotive suspension terminology, rather than "tilt" and "anti-tilt"?

 

That might be understandable for me, but I think most people will have difficulty knowing what we're talking about if we start speaking of fingerboard orientation in terms of caster, trail, toe, rake, camber, damping, spring rates etc. :lol:

 

Instead, we could borrow some nautical terms. The fingerboard could be "listing to port" or "listing to starboard. :lol:

 

Aircraft might be even more fun. The fingerboard could be "banking left" or "banking right", lending a fun zoomy-swooshy feel to fingerboard discussions. :)

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Jacob, are you suggesting that we use automotive suspension terminology, rather than "tilt" and "anti-tilt"?

 

That might be understandable for me, but I think most people will have difficulty knowing what we're talking about if we start speaking of fingerboard orientation in terms of caster, trail, toe, rake, camber, damping, spring rates etc. :lol:

 

Instead, we could borrow some nautical terms. The fingerboard could be "listing to port" or "listing to starboard. :lol:

My violas float without any list at all--players say they're listless too.

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Conor,

You have mentioned the look of your bridge when you set the neck flat, have you looked at bridges from great shops and tried to gleen insight? I realize the tops of the corresponding instruments maybe distorted, but I would think you could at least get a general historic perspective if nothing else.

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There have been 451 posts since the original question, which have included violas and cellos, and it got pretty much off-topic by post number 4. What would you like to consider the main focus of this thread to be?

Post #4 is not at all off-topic to this thread. It's the crux of this thread. Check out where her elbow joint goes laterally as she shifts up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLa3ah3Se0Q#t=36

vs. your unquestioning adherence to the following BS. Once can only hope Ms. Hahn did not patronize a violin restorer that espouses such nonsense.

 

Conor, see Jerry's last post, and also posts 204, 215 and 279. That's presuming that the post numbers in this thread are the same for both of us.

 

I've also copied this from another thread on the topic, which I linked to near the beginning of this thread:

____________________________________________

 

"Whew, it's sure nice to be back to a fully functioning computer, with a connection which doesn't fail five times while attempting to post!

The basics behind Weisshaar's tilt recommendation can be summarized by doing a quick experiment:

Raise your left arm into violin playing position, but leave the wrist and fingers completely relaxed. Maintaining this position, take a violin, and holding it at the tailpiece end with the right hand, rest the neck into the left hand. Now, move and rotate the violin as needed, so that it can be fingered with minimal alteration of this relaxed finger and wrist position.

What most people will find is that the entire violin will be rotated, with the bass side much higher, and the treble side much lower than can be achieved when the violin is positioned under the chin in the typical fashion, with a typical player physiology.

Building some of this angle into the neck is an attempt to bring the hand/neck/fingerboard relationship closer to this natural, relaxed state. This also requires less raising of the bowing arm. Are these desirable goals? Most people would think so, particularly with rising awareness of repetitive use type injuries.

 

How well does it work in practice? Your results may vary. Most musicians will not consciously notice the difference. What they may notice is that a violin set up this way is easier to play, or less tiring, or that they can actually play better technically, without necessarily understanding why.'

_________________________________

 

This was where Weisshaar was coming from, I won't try to speak for all the other shops which do it.

 

I take ergonomics and repetitive use injuries pretty seriously, and so do many teachers now. They're more common than many people realize. Did anyone catch The Strad news article on Hilary Hahn canceling all her performances for 6 weeks, due to an "inflamed muscle"? I don't know the details, but I wonder how much that's costing her in lost income!

 

Oh, and British musician Julian Webber has recently announced that he's been forced into retirement (from playing) due to a neck problem which has resulted in decreased strength in his right arm. I don't know any more details on that either.

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I don't need to made up shit or be an ass-hole to make a fair argument. Since when did violins have wheels? Who's the idiot?! :lol:

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I don't need to made up shit or be an ass-hole to make a fair argument. Since when did violins have wheels? Who's the idiot?! :lol:

Oh goody. An Austro-Australian dungfest war begins, and remember, you saw it here first.  

I feel that, at this point, there's enough evidence of idiocy to share around generously.

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jacobsaunders, on 04 Aug 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:snapback.png

Oh goody. An Austro-Australian dungfest war begins, and remember, you saw it here first.  

I feel that, at this point, there's enough evidence of idiocy to spread around generously.

Well, it's only been a hundred years since the first one!

And yeah, cursing at an Aussie doesn't get you very far. A disturbingly large number of people here can't finish a sentence unless they've interjected the appropriate f's and c's. I prefer not to, but I don't mind if you do.

I am going to enjoy the explanation of how camber relates to the neck surface we've been discussing. A camber, rather than a tilt, at the neck would result in a flat fingerboard surface not fitting flush. Was that the point of the reference Jacob?

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Conor,

You have mentioned the look of your bridge when you set the neck flat, have you looked at bridges from great shops and tried to gleen insight? I realize the tops of the corresponding instruments maybe distorted, but I would think you could at least get a general historic perspective if nothing else.

Jerry,

 

I have looked at some bridges over the years, and thought about these things a good deal. I really don't want to seem too hung up on the whole thing, and as you can see from the following pictures, my bridges tend to be well within the norms.

 

Here are some bridges. I made up the framed collection s one of four we used to decorate the walls in our Violin Makers of Ireland exhibitions. I hope that I will be forgiven my conceit in putting in one of my own. The others are out of a box in the workshop. There's one of mine there too for comparison.

post-30909-0-18984800-1407160873_thumb.jpg

post-30909-0-20433300-1407160905_thumb.jpg

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Jacob, In the past I have defended your harsh attitude toward other who have divergent views from your own, because of your ability as a violin maker ... but now there has been a   not so invisible line crossed ..I have the distinct feeling that your personal regard for me is small to non existent .due to the fact that I am not an A list maker with little formal training ...HOWEVER IMHO I feel there is an. apology  due... we do have scruples and decorum to maintain. ....

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Jerry,

I have looked at some bridges over the years, and thought about these things a good deal. I really don't want to seem too hung up on the whole thing, and as you can see from the following pictures, my bridges tend to be well within the norms.

Here are some bridges. I made up the framed collection s one of four we used to decorate the walls in our Violin Makers of Ireland exhibitions. I hope that I will be forgiven my conceit in putting in one of my own. The others are out of a box in the workshop. There's one of mine there too for comparison.

Excellent Conor, we have some in common. I will send over a pic later today, because it is my "day off" so I usually only work part day. I think it is also fascinating to try and justify the particular cut on the bridge with the playing styles of the time. I had an idea of a pet project to send a nice violin, from shop to shop all over the world and have bridges made at each. One hundred shops, one hundred bridges. Then put them in a book with measurements, I do not think there would be many copies sold, but it would be fascinating.

On a side note, we talked about having a bridge carving competition at the VSA this year. Nothing realistic, and not to any particular instrument, just something fun to show off your style or flair for fashion.

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Post #4 is not at all off-topic to this thread. It's the crux of this thread. Check out where her elbow joint goes laterally as she shifts up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLa3ah3Se0Q#t=36

vs. your unquestioning adherence to the following BS.  (description of Weisshaars reasoning)

 

You can pick your own focus of this thread as you see fit. Some people have tried to bring it back to the original question of the OP, and some have done otherwise. I can go either way, and have done some of each.

 

Regarding "unquestioning adherence to the following BS"?

Dude, are you still off in fantasy land and making stuff up? This has gotten to be a bit like listening to someone who is yelling out the window of an insane asylum, vehemently asserting that I'm a  unicorn. :lol:

But unicorns are magical creatures, so maybe if you repeat it often enough, with a few of the repetitions in caps or underlined, it will become true. B)

 

I've been paying close attention to players and their motions for about 50 years now, was a player myself, and have been the lucky recipient of much more than 50 years of high-end experience which came before that. But thanks for the video. ;)  Nothing new there.

 

As I have stated before, Weisshaar encouraged testing his methods, encouraged innovation, and I can't think of anyone in that shop (well, maybe one sort-of) who unquestioningly followed methods he had brought from the Hermann and Wurlitzer shops, or his current methods. Nor did he. But I was there and you weren't, so I'm sure you know better. :D

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Jacob, are you now suggesting that we use automotive suspension terminology, rather than "tilt" and "anti-tilt"?

 

I’m cool with camber, caster, and toe-in (or out), but shouldn’t we be using Italian terms?  If so, can anyone give us the Italian for “Holy shit, Batman!, we’ve forgotten the OP”  ????

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I’m cool with camber, caster, and toe-in (or out), but shouldn’t we be using Italian terms?  If so, can anyone give us the Italian for “Holy shit, Batman!, we’ve forgotten the OP”  ????

The OP reported about 20 pages ago that he had made a decision, and that he would let us know how the repair went. Post #71.

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