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Strange neck angle


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Guys, how should the majority of NORMAL violins be ?  :lol:

 

( should we take a vote ? :) )

Hello Carl,

I will not tell you how things should be, but every instrument that comes into the shop we take a shorthand measurement of the poiriette (neck tilt). The norm is slightly up towards the g.

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Did or did not Tertis "Tilt" his fingerboard to the bass side???? Even more useless????

 

 

Bruce

Dear Bruce,

I defined “Tilt” and the opposite concept of “Anti-Tilt” in post #292 here:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330881-strange-neck-angle/page-15

it would be very kind if you could adopt this, since otherwise it becomes difficult to understand what you are talking about. Burgess is confused already

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Also, I wonder what the gathered wisdom would be about taking the whole string path and moving it to the right 2mm on wider instruments. I haven't done this, but I once saw it done.

Dear Michael,

My father did this for about the last decade of his life, although not quite as much as you suggest (2mm). This means slightly off-centre end pin, neck root etc. It can be a temporary cause of head scratching when working out where to fit a new bridge, but once one has overcome that, it is certainly a help, particularly for short people who are determined to play a large viola.

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Dear Bruce,I defined “Tilt” and the opposite concept of “Anti-Tilt” in post #292 here:http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330881-strange-neck-angle/page-15it would be very kind if you could adopt this, since otherwise it becomes difficult to understand what you are talking about. Burgess is confused already

So when you wrote "Therefore I shall not be “tilting” any fingerboards/necks. Vive la Différence !" In post #249, were you using the English definition or the new "Saunders" definition you referred to in post #292?

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Dear Bruce,

I defined “Tilt” and the opposite concept of “Anti-Tilt” in post #292 here:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330881-strange-neck-angle/page-15

it would be very kind if you could adopt this, since otherwise it becomes difficult to understand what you are talking about.

I don't think "the Saunders definition" is going to catch on. "Anti-tilt" sounds more like a description of your sentiments regarding tilted necks, than a cogent description of angle. :lol:

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Dear Bruce,

I defined “Tilt” and the opposite concept of “Anti-Tilt” in post #292 here:

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330881-strange-neck-angle/page-15

it would be very kind if you could adopt this, since otherwise it becomes difficult to understand what you are talking about. Burgess is confused already

Hi Jacob,

 

The word "tilt" for me is neutral and can go one way or another: Tilt down on the treble (up on the bass) or down on the bass (up on the treble).

 

Anti-tilt, out of context, doesn't tell me or many readers anything unless they happen to have read your other posts. Your "anti-tilt" begins to sound like a religious movement or a term used by politicians.

 

Bruce

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All kidding aside,

There are good reasons for tilting the neck in either direction other than the blatantly obvious. I would like to solicit observations from others here about benefits of doing this one way or another. Conor and Martin have both already given good points. There is no wrong answer as each of us has different experiences with different players, instruments, and playing styles. It seems to be the case that people in our profession tend to be very good at observing, and not always so good at explaining.

Jerry

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Hi Jacob,

 

The word "tilt" for me is neutral and can go one way or another: Tilt down on the treble (up on the bass) or down on the bass (up on the treble).

 

Anti-tilt, out of context, doesn't tell me or many readers anything unless they happen to have read your other posts. Your "anti-tilt" begins to sound like a religious movement or a term used by politicians.

 

Bruce

 

How about we skip "tilt" and just use the terms "E string up" or "E string down" and if you're in the Northern hemisphere.

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Hi Jacob,

 

The word "tilt" for me is neutral and can go one way or another: Tilt down on the treble (up on the bass) or down on the bass (up on the treble).

 

Anti-tilt, out of context, doesn't tell me or many readers anything unless they happen to have read your other posts. Your "anti-tilt" begins to sound like a religious movement or a term used by politicians.

 

Bruce

Ok, fine if you aren't bothered if anyone knows what you are talking about.

To give two exactly opposite concepts the same name, and then imagine to have caught me in a contradiction, seems pretty futile doesn't it?

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Sounds good. Higher in relation to what ? ( just to dot the i ) :)

Carl,

 

What I said was: Tilt down on the treble (up on the bass) or down on the bass (up on the treble).

 

It was in reference to the "tilt" of the fingerboard relative to square set which would be equal height on bass and treble sides of the neck mortice above the belly.

It's what we've been talking about all along.

 

I'm hoping that most readers here know the difference between the bass and treble side of the instrument or we can use right and left which can be confused more easily depending upon how you are looking at the instrument.

 

Bruce

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Ok, fine if you aren't bothered if anyone knows what you are talking about.

 

Which was followed by two hours of stunned silence from everyone...............

 

But it did make one or two things crystal clear. ;)

 

 

 

I'm still wondering, which direction is "anti-tilt" on a cello? :lol:

 

Bruce, I think your description is quite clear, except that we might need to make an exception for the occasional "left-handed" instrument which is strung up backwards. :)

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It was in reference to the "tilt" of the fingerboard relative to square set which would be equal height on bass and treble sides of the neck mortice above the belly.

It's what we've been talking about all along.

 

 

 

Thank you, Bruce ! Now, even I understood it. And I'm a tad slow with these things. Sorry.

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Ok, fine if you aren't bothered if anyone knows what you are talking about.

To give two exactly opposite concepts the same name, and then imagine to have caught me in a contradiction, seems pretty futile doesn't it?

 

 

Indeed.

 

Come on now, those who have spoken against tilting have being referring to tilting to lower the E string side of the fingerboard. Many of us were given this tilt as a standard when we trained, and it was STANDARD PRACTICE in many good shops. I understood perfectly when Jacob described tilting the fingerboard the other way as anti tilting.

 

To pretend that the anyone has been arguing against any deviation for any reason from the perfectly level is utter nonsense, and smacks of the worst type of snake in the grass, parish pump politics.

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Indeed.

 

Come on now, those who have spoken against tilting have being referring to tilting to lower the E string side of the fingerboard. Many of us were given this tilt as a standard when we trained, and it was STANDARD PRACTICE in many good shops. I understood perfectly when Jacob described tilting the fingerboard the other way as anti tilting.

 

To pretend that the anyone has been arguing against any deviation for any reason from the perfectly level is utter nonsense, and smacks of the worst type of snake in the grass, parish pump politics.

Hi Conor,

 

I presume your post is addressed to me.

 

In all honesty I was trying to come up with a terminology which would enable someone not indoctrined in the ways of violinmaking or a repair shop to understand clearly what we are talking about. This includes a certain number of people reading this Maestronet thread. If I take tilt or anti-tilt out of context with this thread then the terms become incomprehensible. Nothing more, nothing less. This is why I suggested using treble and bass.

 

Everyone is splitting hairs about every little detail and my intention was to point out to Jacob that it could have been said it in a clearer way by posing my question.

 

No-one has to do what I say or suggest but to read any more into than what it is on the surface I find unfortunate.

 

Bruce

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All kidding aside,

There are good reasons for tilting the neck in either direction other than the blatantly obvious. I would like to solicit observations from others here about benefits of doing this one way or another. Conor and Martin have both already given good points. There is no wrong answer as each of us has different experiences with different players, instruments, and playing styles. It seems to be the case that people in our profession tend to be very good at observing, and not always so good at explaining.

Jerry

Connor and Martin always reek of superior intelligence,,,,,

as to my experiences,

20 something years ago I had a sking accident and my bow arm had the elbow pointing in the right direction,,

but it had been rotated 360 degres.

OUCH!

The ski patrol was going to load me up and bounce me down the mountain with my arm twisted around like that.

After a shouting match and threatening to stab them with my ski poles they unrolled my arm.

They were afraid of broken bones and debris that might further injure the joint, I was afraid that bouncing down the hill with my arm twisted like that would further rip tissue that had not been already ripped off.

I knew that the way that I fell that would be impossible to have broken bones or cartilage and it was just stretched and twisted.

I promptly stood up and skied down holding my arm in the socket, if I let go it would drop several inches.

It was fully gross and nauseating.

They ABSOLUTELY INSISTED that I go see their doctor and sign release forms, he pronounced immediate surgery needed

as it would fall down when I let go of it. At night it would roll around on the bed beside me.

Doctor! I had no money for doctors, I made a harness to hold it in place, and continued to work doing heavy mechanic

work, I also went sking many times the rest of that season, one armed(skiing was cheap back then). I just took lots of stuff to make it grow back,

as nothing appeared to be ripped off,just really stretched out It took about 9 months to heal. (completely)

Then there's the rollerblade accident. My kids got me rollerblades, I rollerskate excellently, but in a freak accident

as soon as I put them on I flipped backwards on a concrete sidewalk hit square on my elbow, chipped that,,,

and busted the upper ring of cartridge off of the top of the scapula and ripped the bicep off the top notch

going up over the shoulder, so now it's tracking in front of the arm instead of over the top.

And the collar bone broke free of the cartilage on both ends.

Ouch!

A had sports therapist/chiropractor friend put the cartilage where it belonged and the muscle where it belonged several

times, my daughter learned how to put the bicep back in it's notch when I would raise my arm too high and pop it off.

It was never supposed to stay on it's own but it doesn't seem to pop off anymore.

At this point I can live with it, It still feels a little weird at times but I'm good to go.

So as for violin set up,,

If I have to play for an extended period on the g string and it has the sensation of climbing over a mountain

across the d then back down to the g,,, it starts tiring my shoulder out and it will begin aching,

especially if the piece has a lot of cuts in it.

Now if someone would give me some advise to get rid of this wedgie,I'd be greatful.

I would never have dreamed that a little tilt in a neck would have been such a big deal.

After liver failure, ruptured disks and back surgery,

I'm just thankful to be alive.(being that today I just got delivered a never used European police BMW motorcycle,

complete with the radio box, hard luggage and all the faring's and electric windshield traded for a fiddle,

I'm good to go.

There's a nice distraction for this wonderful thread.

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 Come on now, those who have spoken against tilting have being referring to tilting to lower the E string side of the fingerboard. Many of us were given this tilt as a standard when we trained, and it was STANDARD PRACTICE in many good shops. I understood perfectly when Jacob described tilting the fingerboard the other way as anti tilting.

 

Since this discussion has included violins, violas and cellos, and cellos are bowed from the other side, which way is "anti-tilt" on a cello?

And "standard practice" varies on violas. With Jacob's Tertis example, "standard practice" was to make the bass side lower. In some shops, standard practice has been to make the treble side lower. So his chosen terminology is really quite vague and highly susceptible to misinterpretation.

 

Regarding your reference to Parish Pump Politics:

"Parish pump politics" seems to be most applicable to Saunders and Humper. Most of the rest of us have said something along the lines of "here's what I do", or "it depends on the specifics of the situation".

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I just got delivered a never used European police BMW motorcycle,

complete with the radio box, hard luggage and all the faring's and electric windshield traded for a fiddle,

I'm good to go.

There's a nice distraction for this wonderful thread.

 

BMW bike ? Respect !

 

By the way, these are still available brand new :

 

https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=xr0IvS-nZVuF_M&tbnid=n6glbjAJJvGtPM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.i.kiev.ua%2F~viking%2Fzund.htm&ei=A5PeU4zwMObI0QWf2oHAAg&bvm=bv.72197243,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNFPJLHkewR9JqtIy6AlBAh7RmiiPg&ust=1407181933921160

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