Cornerless Strad, yes?

[Rue]

My question of the moment: Dutch violinist Simone Lamsma plays the “ex Braga” Stradivarius...and it's cornerless?

http://pronetoviolins.blogspot.ca/2013/05/simone-lamsma.html

"...Among other violins, she has played a (Ferdinand) Gagliano (1773), a Carlo Tononi (1709), and the Habeneck Strad from 1734, but her current violin is the Chanot Stradivarius (aka the Braga Stradivarius) of 1718 (or 1681 or 1726 – sources differ.) It has been loaned to her by an anonymous benefactor. The violin is reportedly protected by a (Dimitri) Musafia violin case, one of the best violin cases available. The Chanot Stradivarius is rather unique in that it has no corners and has been described as guitar-shaped although it is definitely not guitar-shaped. The Chanot was purchased by Joshua Bell in 1987 and subsequently sold. It is said to have been featured in the 1998 movie The Red Violin. "

If François Chanot lived from 1788-1825 and Stradivari lived from 1644 - 1737...how did Strad come to make a Chanot style instrument?

I must be missing the obvious...if so...I'm blaming it on long day at work (true!)...

[Dwight Brown]

The Chanot cornerless strad (or one of them) is for sale at Bein & Fushi

 

 

DLB

[Marty Kasprzyk]

My question of the moment: Dutch violinist Simone Lamsma plays the “ex Braga” Stradivarius...and it's cornerless?

http://pronetoviolins.blogspot.ca/2013/05/simone-lamsma.html

"...Among other violins, she has played a (Ferdinand) Gagliano (1773), a Carlo Tononi (1709), and the Habeneck Strad from 1734, but her current violin is the Chanot Stradivarius (aka the Braga Stradivarius) of 1718 (or 1681 or 1726 – sources differ.) It has been loaned to her by an anonymous benefactor. The violin is reportedly protected by a (Dimitri) Musafia violin case, one of the best violin cases available. The Chanot Stradivarius is rather unique in that it has no corners and has been described as guitar-shaped although it is definitely not guitar-shaped. The Chanot was purchased by Joshua Bell in 1987 and subsequently sold. It is said to have been featured in the 1998 movie The Red Violin. "

If François Chanot lived from 1788-1825 and Stradivari lived from 1644 - 1737...how did Strad come to make a Chanot style instrument...

I must be missing the obvious...if so...I'm blaming it on long day at work (true!)...

This Strad cornerless violin has a shape very similar to Strad's guitars.   Later guitars made by other makers developed different shapes.  Actually all of Strad's violins and cellos have similar shapes to his guitars if you cut out the C bouts and add some corner points.

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

She played the Chanot Strad with the Utah Symphony Orchestra in February 2012 -- Mendelsohn.

[Jeremyamoto]

The corner-less "Chanot Chardon" Strad used to be a viola D'amore as far as I know and was later altered to become a violin. I'm not a fan of the shape, but I like those f-holes.

[duane88]

If it used to be a viola d'Amore, who carved the f-holes? I agree, they are beautiful, but are they Strad, and who altered it to it's present form? Where did the scroll come from, since the Amore would have probably had a different head, like the Storioni copy of the cornerless model.

 

The f-holes don't look so Stradivari to me, but the instrument is cool.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Attached is an overlay of the "Chanot Chardon" outline on a photo of a 1718 Strad violin which shows their similar shape.

bell superimposed.pdf

[Rue]

Cool!  Thanks for posting that!

 

So let me get this straight in my head...(no promises though... )

 

Stradivari experimented and cut down a spare gamba and made a violin out of it.  Then...long after Strad died, Chanot came along and made a number of similar looking cornerless violins - that became known as Chanot style violins. 

 

THEN some unknown person decided to call the original cornerless Strad a Chanot Strad...and the name stuck! 

[Uncle Bob]

You can see some fairly nice pictures of the instrument here.   Lovely of course but I prefer violins where the luthier did not cut corners.

 

Bob

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Attached is an overlay of the "Chanot Chardon" outline on a photo of a 1718 Strad violin which shows their similar shape.

Here's an overlay of the 1688 and 1700 Strad guitar outlines (blue and green lines) with the "Chanot Chardon" violin outline (black line) scaled to the same length.  

 

I believe the "Chanot Chardon" violin's shape is narrower than Strad's guitar shapes in order to get better bow clearance.  Cutting out the C bouts for his normal violins makes it even narrower for more bow clearance and I suspect that the "Chanot Chardon" is difficult to bow.

Bell strad and guitar outlines.pdf

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

Based on Marty's overlays, unless the rib height was reduced, there is a net increase in volume associated with the design of the Chanot Strad.  Has anyone put together data on the tonal impact of that change -- with all the usual caveats about the wood, plate thicknesses and so on?  I suspect if the change had resulted in a significant improvement, we'd all be making Chanots.  But surely there was some impact short of such a game-changer.

 

(And on the notion of our all making Chanots, think of what that would have done to the volume of traffic on MN if we didn't have the subject of corners to chew over.  Jeffrey could have made umpteen more instruments in the time he has spent moderating those threads.  To say nothing of the others he could have made by saving time on corner and purfling mitres...Heck, we all could be making more fiddles!)

[Evan Smith]

I had a workshop the last couple of weeks,

and one of the guys had this 5 string 15 inch viola,,

I gave him so much grief,,(all in fun,,he's an old friend,,87 years old)

That he decided to make a cornerless fiddle.

I had a da salo mold cut out but didn't have the cornerblocks cut out yet,,

so we removed the corners and here it is.

the mold will almost sit directly on top of a del gesu mold.

He did it in five days. Now he is all reved up about making cornerless five strings.

He just moved to a retirement home so until he gets his shop set up, I am varnishing it for him.

in the sun,,

So of course I had to do one too....

I never really stopped to think about how much time the corners took in all.

Think of all the joints,, and the purf,, and shaping the corners,,,,

kind of like a crazy girlfriend,, glad she's gone,, yet you'll always miss her,,,,just a bit.

[Julian Cossmann Cooke]

"kind of like a crazy girlfriend,, glad she's gone,, yet you'll always miss her,,,,just a bit."

 

Evan, your analogy gave me a chuckle this morning before I sit down to work.  Thanks!

[Rue]

At least now I'll know what a Chanot Del Gesu  is...

[Joe Swenson]

Listening to Simone's cornerless fiddle, I was impressed at the sound aside from her phenominal playing.

So aside from aesthetics and more mass/damping in that area of the body, what do corners really do for a violin?

It sure does take getting used to looking at that hourglass shape and convincing yourself it's a violin.

Joe

[skiingfiddler]

The Chanot-Chardon cornerless Strad was, according to the cozio archive, originally a violino d'amore, which is, I believe, a different instrument from a viola d'amore.  Both the violino d'amore and the viola d'amore, however, have very different shapes from the violin family -- different scrolls, flat backs for viols, different shaped plates, and different rib heights.  So, converting a violino d'amore into a violin would have meant putting on a new scroll, building a new arched back, adjusting the rib height and reshaping the rib garland, reshaping the top plate.

 

Using the Stradivari top plate and (possibly) the ribs as the starting materials in that extensive conversion, which occurred in the 19th century, still means, apparently, that the resulting instrument is a Strad. 

 

Steven Csik

 

Later edit: Concerning date of conversion, see post #21

[skiingfiddler]

 

 

So let me get this straight in my head...(no promises though... )

 

Stradivari experimented and cut down a spare gamba and made a violin out of it. 

Rue,

That's not how the cornerless Strad once played by Joshua Bell came into existence.  See post #16.  The conversion into a violin occurred about century after the last violin making Stradivari died.

 

Steven Csik

 

Later edit: My assertion that the conversion occurred in the 19th century is based on information which is open to different interpretations, including an interpretation that the conversion occurred prior to the 19th century, possibly at the time when the Stradivari shop still existed.  See post #21.

[Joe Swenson]

The Chanot-Chardon cornerless Strad was, according to the cozio archive, originally a violino d'amore, which is, I believe, a different instrument from a viola d'amore. Both the violino d'amore and the viola d'amore, however, have very different shapes from the violin family -- different scrolls, flat backs for viols, different shaped plates, and different rib heights. So, converting a violino d'amore into a violin would have meant putting on a new scroll, building a new arched back, adjusting the rib height and reshaping the rib garland, reshaping the top plate.

Using the Stradivari top plate and (possibly) the ribs as the starting materials in that extensive conversion, which occurred in the 19th century, still means, apparently, that the resulting instrument is a Strad.

Steven Csik

In the interview with Simone Lamsma on YouTube, she describes the instrument as the only one of this shape that Stradivari made. "On loan from an anonymous benefactor". It seems hard to imagine the work it takes to reshape a different instrument into another compared to intentionally making one in this configuration to begin with. If you already have graduated plates of one shape with a proper edge, how do you make a new edge on a different outline? What parts of the former instrument would have been kept? And what parts would be made over completely?

I'm wonering if anyone has examined this instrument in any detail to determine what if anything may have been done to it or what its origin truly was?

Whoever converted it knew what they were doing.

[Rue]

Thanks Steven...this is all so complicated...

 

...so someone else made it out of 'Strad parts' (to keep it simple)...

[Bruce Carlson]

Thanks Steven...this is all so complicated...

 

...so someone else made it out of 'Strad parts' (to keep it simple)...

Here's a slightly modified cornerless Stradivari viola d'amore transformed into a violin with corners added. The pegbox was shortened from twelve to four pegs.

 

Bruce

 

 

[skiingfiddler]

My assumption that the Chanot-Chardon Stradivari was converted from a violino d'amore to a violin in the 19th century is based on what I remember reading about that instrument at the cozio.com website before cozio.com was acquired by Tarisio.  It is possible that I made an incorrect assumption when dealing with the old cozio.com information.

 

Currently the Cozio Archive contains the following note on the Chanot-Chardon:

 

Begin quote:

Originally built as a violino d'amore and modified to be a violin more than 100 years ago.

An unusual Stradivari, The Strad, December, 1964, London

End quote.

 

If the Chanot-Chardon was converted during the lives of the Stradivaris, ie, in the first half of the 18th century, then the conversion occurred more than 200 years ago from 1964. While stating that the conversion occurred "more than 100 years ago" would not logically contradict the statement that the conversion occurred more than 200 years ago, the "more than 100 years ago" would be an unusual way of expressing an event that occurred more than 200 years ago.  I believe the usual inference for an occurrence of "more than 100 years ago", counting from 1964, would put the event back in the 19th century, but that is an inference.

 

I wish I had access to the original December 1964 The Strad article.  Maybe that would clarify some of this.  I'll try to get it.

 

Steven Csik

[jacobsaunders]

I wish I had access to the original December 1964 The Strad article.  Maybe that would clarify some of this.  I'll try to get it.

 

Steven Csik

I have a copy of the December 1964 on my kitchen table right now, what would you like to know? (It is mostly just about who owned it).

[skiingfiddler]

I have a copy of the December 1964 on my kitchen table right now, what would you like to know? (It is mostly just about who owned it).

Supposedly, that article would contain information about when the conversion from violino d'amore to violin occurred.  If you could quote that information, that would be much appreciated.

 

Steven Csik

[Bruce Carlson]

My assumption that the Chanot-Chardon Stradivari was converted from a violino d'amore to a violin in the 19th century is based on what I remember reading about that instrument at the cozio.com website before cozio.com was acquired by Tarisio.  It is possible that I made an incorrect assumption when dealing with the old cozio.com information.

 

Currently the Cozio Archive contains the following note on the Chanot-Chardon:

 

Begin quote:

Originally built as a violino d'amore and modified to be a violin more than 100 years ago.

An unusual Stradivari, The Strad, December, 1964, London

End quote.

 

If the Chanot-Chardon was converted during the lives of the Stradivaris, ie, in the first half of the 18th century, then the conversion occurred more than 200 years ago from 1964. While stating that the conversion occurred "more than 100 years ago" would not logically contradict the statement that the conversion occurred more than 200 years ago, the "more than 100 years ago" would be an unusual way of expressing an event that occurred more than 200 years ago.  I believe the usual inference for an occurrence of "more than 100 years ago", counting from 1964, would put the event back in the 19th century, but that is an inference.

 

I wish I had access to the original December 1964 The Strad article.  Maybe that would clarify some of this.  I'll try to get it.

 

Steven Csik

Hi Steven,

 

Interestingly enough Chanot-Chardon is not mentioned in the history of former owners in the Tarisio/Cozio listing for the instrument between 1859 and 1890 where ownership is, I presume, unknown. The Chanot Chardon business came into being in 1872 when Joseph Marie Chardon took over the shop from Georges Chanot. So could it have been between the two dates above that the instrument was converted and if they owned it or converted it then it became known as the Chanot-Chardon? The instrument is listed under the name Chanot-Chardon in Goodkind.

 

Bruce

[jacobsaunders]

Supposedly, that article would contain information about when the conversion from violino d'amore to violin occurred.  If you could quote that information, that would be much appreciated.

 

Steven Csik

No, it just says;

The Stradivari which forms the subject of this months illustration was originally built as a violino d’amore. It is not known at what date its outline was modified but it must have been in ist present form for well over a hundred years. The earliest record of ist ownership in this country was when it was in the possesion of a Capitain Francis Taylor in 1859.............