Guy_Gallo Posted May 31, 2014 Report Share Posted May 31, 2014 I have a gorgeous Hill Bow by William Retford. I am thinking of getting am ebony frog to replace the original both to preserve the original and to make it possible to travel with the bow. The bow probably dates from 1910-20. Questions: Anyone have a Hill ebony frog from that era they'd like to sell? The tortoise is unlined. Would an ebony from that era be unlined? If I have one carved, should I have it unlined? Can an off the shelf silver fitted frog be made to fit this channeled stick? (see attached image) Thanks, Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 I have a gorgeous Hill Bow by William Retford. I am thinking of getting am ebony frog to replace the original both to preserve the original and to make it possible to travel with the bow. The bow probably dates from 1910-20. Questions: Anyone have a Hill ebony frog from that era they'd like to sell? The tortoise is unlined. Would an ebony from that era be unlined? If I have one carved, should I have it unlined? Can an off the shelf silver fitted frog be made to fit this channeled stick? (see attached image) Thanks, Guy Hi Guy; Hope you are doing well. Haven't seen you here for a while. May be best to have an ebony replacement frog made for the bow... same style as the tortoise original... or at least that's my opinion. Quick question. Does that bow bear Retford's mark at the tip facing (an engraved dot)? If so, the mark is often repeated on the unlined area of the the tortoise frog. Unusual to see drill marks in the mortise left by that maker. From what I understand, he used to have a bit of a thing about that, especially when Napier Sr. did it (the story goes that Napier did it to piss-off Retford). As far as I know, Napier Sr. did not otherwise mark his work (the younger Napier used a floral mark). Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hargrave Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 I agree with Jeff. Hill bow frogs were always fitted to individual sticks. Best have a good bow maker make a replacement. There are still one or two ex Hill bow makers around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Ebony isn't completely safe anymore either. Might want to consider having a replacement frog made out of some material which won't be challenged in the near future, like domestic cow dung. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addie Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Ebony isn't completely safe anymore either. Might want to consider having a replacement frog made out of some material which won't be challenged in the near future, like domestic cow dung. As long as you don’t travel international or to California. Mad Cow, and all that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 As long as you don’t travel international or to California. Mad Cow, and all that... Yea, the Japanese wouldn't allow that in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vathek Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Wouldn't mammoth ivory be safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Mammoth ivory is legal everywhere. The problem with it is that it is very hard to distinguish it from elephant ivory, so it could be seized by mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeyerFittings Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 African blackwood, mountaun mahogany, snakewood, Swartzia, all have made frogs. Mammoth is not only problematic as was illustrated but is becoming very expensive in good pieces. The woodwind and bag-pipe makers are grabbing it up also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy_Gallo Posted June 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Sorry to be so long in replying. I've been snowed under recently. Yes, it does have retford's engraved single dot on the tip. There is no dot on the frog. There is a letter K which is repeated on the stick. -Guy Quick question. Does that bow bear Retford's mark at the tip facing (an engraved dot)? If so, the mark is often repeated on the unlined area of the the tortoise frog. Unusual to see drill marks in the mortise left by that maker. From what I understand, he used to have a bit of a thing about that, especially when Napier Sr. did it (the story goes that Napier did it to piss-off Retford). As far as I know, Napier Sr. did not otherwise mark his work (the younger Napier used a floral mark). Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Mammoth ivory is likely to be made illegal in New Jersey very shortly. In any case, TSA agents (if you're traveling, may not be able to tell the difference from elephant ivory. How about something like Corian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Appleman Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 A bowmaker friend recently made me a replica button out of industrial casein. It looks so much like real ivory, it won't be a help either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy_Gallo Posted June 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Thanks all. I think having one custom made is the way to go. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy_Gallo Posted June 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Jeffrey, What might t signify, perhaps in term of sate, that this has the Retford tip mark and also shows the drill marks? Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeyerFittings Posted June 29, 2014 Report Share Posted June 29, 2014 Guy, I'm sorry that I forgot about this post till today. Tim Baker, who worked at Hill's in the later years was at Oberlin for the bow workshop. You could have sent it to him to look at. I guess your problem is that any of the Hill guys still active would require international shipping for a copy and fit, not a good move with tortoise shell. You might look up John Aniano who works at Yung Chin's shop in NYC, or used to anyway or Isaak as was mentioned. He's a very talented bow guy who might enjoy the job. There are many great bow makers in your State who can make you a copy. David is correct in stating the horrific problems that may lie ahead for those of us who use exotic woods for our production, but can you imagine the havoc that will ensue if old work with ebony involved in it goes verboten. Anything is possible but almost no one with a violin of any quality would be able to buy, sell, or travel. I have to believe that some of this can and will be straightened out. If you want to plan for the possible problems with ebony, I would suggest having the archetier who copies your frog use a non porous piece of African Blackwood. I don't know why more makers don't use it for frogs. It's not on any lists that I know of and Selmer still makes thousands of clarinets out of it. It's also as pretty as the best ebony and the weight is slightly heavier, but not much and that can be controlled by a good craftsman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy_Gallo Posted June 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Thanks. I've had work done by both Yung Chin and John Aniano. It's been a while. I don't know if he's still there. Good idea. --Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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