Titian mould

[violins88]

I have the Strad plans for the Titian. Now working to create the inside mould. The top and back measurements are not identical. Plus, one does not really know for sure the overhang all around, and the exact rib thickness, though I am using 1.0mm.

 

Is there a standard inside mold drawing that you use?  Help.

 

John

[Kevin Kelly]

John,

I don't have the poster handy, but isn't there a CT scan of the rib assembly on there?

[violins88]

John,

I don't have the poster handy, but isn't there a CT scan of the rib assembly on there?

Kevin,

 

Yes, but the line is fuzzy. I will take a look at that.

[Don Noon]

I don't get the concern about tiny details.

I'd just use the back outline drawing on the poster, figure in 2.5 mm overhang (3.0 in the C's) and 1 (or whatever) mm thickness for the ribs, and get on with it.  Then you have to decide what you want to do about the corner shapes, but that's later.

[Michael_Molnar]

I thought the Titian is a PG form like I adopted.

 

Anyone disagree?

[Jim Bress]

According to the article TWO VIOLIN FORMS: COMMENTARY AND ANALYSES by François Denis, the Titian was made with the P form.  

 

-Jim

[John Harte]

I thought the Titian is a PG form like I adopted.

 

Anyone disagree?

 

Mike, according to Francois Denis the Titian was built on the "P" Ms 44 pattern. 

 

John

[violins88]

To all who replied. Thanks.  Very useful informaiton.

[LinkMan]

http://strad3d.org/cms/index.php/the-violins

 

Plowden Guarneri ~ Willemotte Stradivari ~ Titian Stradivari

 

 

Titian Stradivari

[not telling]

Overhang on Strads is between 2.5 and 3, with 2.8 being average and the # to aim for acc. to Sacconi. And my blunderstanding is that you go off the back measurements.

Read the Zyg article that came with the poster in Feb. 2009. Much useful info.

[Davide Sora]

I thought the Titian is a PG form like I adopted.

 

Anyone disagree?

 

I have to agree with Denis, for me the Titian was made on P form, the CT scans of the ribs on the poster, although a bit fuzzy, match quite well that form.

I used that scan along with the picture and measurements of the form of  Pollens and Denis to make mine, checking the outline on other violins that I like and seem to be made on the same form, like the Toscano 1690, the Betts 1704, the Dornroschen 1704, the Dancla 1710, the Emperor 1715, the Park 1717, the Milanollo 1728 and of course the Titian.

 

The problem is that the P and PG forms and also the G to some extent, are not so markedly different in size and is not so obvious to attribute a violin in one form or another, often there are different opinions and interpretations.

But if the purpose is not to make an exact copy, who really cares?

The Cremonese system is designed so that you can make several variations starting from the same form, so I'm sure we can safely make a Titian like violin also starting with PG form.

 

Here are my measurements for the P and PG forms, if they can be useful for a comparison,

 hoping that they are understandable

 

 

Davide

[violins88]

I located some useful info on a previous Mnet thread here.

[DonLeister]

Hi John,

I know you are committed to this model presently but if you have a chance get the Strad's Huberman poster, you might even have it, it is a lot better resolution ct scans. Very crisp.

[Davide Sora]

....if you have a chance get the Strad's Huberman poster, you might even have it, it is a lot better resolution ct scans. Very crisp.

 

Oh, mea culpa, I forgot to put the Gibson / Huberman 1713 in my list of favorite instruments built on P form and I also forgot the Conte de Fontana 1702.

 

I would like to point out that there are two P forms, the oldest P/B and the P dated 1705, which is the probable reconstruction of the old P/B.

They are very similar with the second slightly longer and I believe that the shorter violins (352/353mm) are made on the P/B and the longest ones (about 355mm) on the P 1705.

 

Davide

[Sadssd]

On ۱۳۹۳/۲/۶ at 13:36, Davide Sora said:

 

من باید با دنیس موافق باشم، برای من Titian با فرم P ساخته شده است، سی تی اسکن دنده های روی پوستر، اگرچه کمی مبهم است، اما به خوبی با این فرم مطابقت دارد.

من از آن اسکن همراه با تصویر و اندازه‌های فرم Pollens و Denis برای ساختن خود استفاده کردم، و طرح کلی ویولن‌های دیگری را که دوست دارم و به نظر می‌رسد روی همان فرم ساخته شده‌اند، بررسی کردم، مانند Toscano 1690، Betts 1704، Dornroschen 1704، Dancla 1710، Emperor 1715، Park 1717، Milanollo 1728 و البته Titian.

 

مشکل این است که فرم های P و PG و همچنین G تا حدی از نظر اندازه تفاوت چندانی با هم ندارند و چندان واضح نیست که بتوان ویولن را به این شکل نسبت داد، اغلب نظرات و تفاسیر متفاوتی وجود دارد.

اما اگر هدف تهیه یک کپی دقیق نباشد ، واقعاً چه کسی اهمیت می دهد ؟

سیستم Cremonese به گونه‌ای طراحی شده است که می‌توانید چندین تغییر از همان فرم ایجاد کنید، بنابراین من مطمئن هستم که می‌توانیم با خیال راحت یک ویولن مانند Titian بسازیم که با فرم PG شروع می‌شود.

 

در اینجا اندازه گیری های من برای فرم های P و PG وجود دارد، اگر آنها می توانند برای مقایسه مفید باشند،

 به امید اینکه قابل درک باشند

 

 

دیوید

Hi ,Do you have the measurement of the form G?

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, Sadssd said:

Hi ,Do you have the measurement of the form G?

[Sadssd]

Thanks Davide Sora

[Davide Sora]

18 minutes ago, Sadssd said:

Thanks Davide Sora

Keep in mind that the original G form is a bit long, around 350mm at the centerline, which results in a 357/358mm long violin body and could reach a stop length of 197/198 mm). If you want a "standard" 195 mm stop lenght you have to make some changes, far from easy to do if you are inexperienced

[Peter K-G]

I just had to try...

Google transate is great!
 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Always use the front outline if you wish to make a copy. Front and back outlines differ on old instruments both from the process of the original making and the stresses over 300 years. The front of a violin is it's main personality...It's face..if you try to fit the F holes to an outline derived from the back it works less well. Ideally if going to great length to make a copy one might  use the outlines of back and front separately using a 3 part mold or something similar but even so have to factor in the fact that the copy will distort quite soon under string tension to a different shape...

[JacksonMaberry]

On 4/25/2014 at 5:13 PM, Michael_Molnar said:

I thought the Titian is a PG form like I adopted.

 

Anyone disagree?

I think the Titian is closer to the P(B), but they're awfully similar so we're both likely to be right (or wrong!).

[Michael_Molnar]

I am fascinated with all the different Strad Violin forms. Why so many? Did Strad hear tonal differences that met certain customers’ expectations? Or did he do it to confuse us? 

[Don Noon]

45 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

I am fascinated with all the different Strad Violin forms. Why so many?

He lived a very long time and make a very large number of violins.  I have made 5 or 6 different violin forms; scaling up to the time or quantity of Strad, that would be in the range of 40 forms.

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, Michael_Molnar said:

I am fascinated with all the different Strad Violin forms. Why so many? Did Strad hear tonal differences that met certain customers’ expectations? Or did he do it to confuse us? 

In my opinion, basically there are not many. The P and the PG were among the first he made and never abandoned: after trying to play with some narrower or longer forms, he stabilized on those two because they probably gave the best results. To confirm this, they are the only two that he remade because they were worn out, or to have more forms available for the increased demand. In fact, still in my opinion, the form P 1705 is the remake of the old P (B), and the form G is the remake of the old PG. I think they are too similar to be considered a new model, while the differences with the other forms (MB, B, B (long), S, SL) are decidedly more substantial.

Therefore it could be said that he stabilized mainly on just two forms.

[The Violin Beautiful]

When I made my own mold for the Titian, I used the Strad poster and placed plexiglass over the CT scan of the ribs. I used a lot of light to see the lines clearly and picked the side I liked best. I drew a line down the middle of the scan and then cut out my half-template. In the end, my form may not be an exact match to the original (I chose not to copy irregularities), but I was not aiming for a complete reproduction of the measurements. 
 

I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading that the Huberman Strad and the Titian are made on the same form and share other traits that make them closely related.