MamaTorra Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 HI all, I just bought this lovely (I think) old fiddle from an auction and I'm hoping for some guidance. These are my pictures (took them this afternoon) and I do actually own this instrument and have it in hand. I have deliberately NOT shown the label, but there is one. The bow is fractional, maybe 1/2 or 3/4 and is unlabeled as far as I can see. http://flic.kr/s/aHsjUkk3Yu First, what do you think I have here? Age? Origin? What is the basis for your thinking? Second, I'm hoping someone can tell me what I'm getting myself into repair wise, and if it's worth doing. I have a fairly good idea of what needs to be done, but I'd like a second opinion from someone knowledgeable with no skin in the game. Thanks in advance. Enjoy the pix! MamaTorra
Rue Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 Excellent photos! I have no idea...but let me see how close I am getting. German Maggini copy? Lots of cracks...the pegbox looks quite bad...with old repairs and needing new ones. I have no idea how much a pegbox can be repaired before it's not worthwhile repairing...but I've seen some amazing photos of repairs...
jacobsaunders Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 You have what was once upon a time, a quite nice late 19th. C. Markneukirchen Maggini Model. It has major condition issues that require an expensive repair: The neck seems to be coming adrift of the body together with the button It has at least 2 body length Bass bar cracks, either side of the bass bar A badly „repaired“ A peg crack on both sides of the peg box 2 sound post cracks (although your pics are out of focus there) sundry other bits and bobs The bow is a cheap nickel mounted Brazilwood Schönbach (or near) school bow, which will not be worth rehairing etc., just as the violin wouldn't be a comercial proposition. It makes no difference what fake label it has inside.
franciscus Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 "Philippo Brandilioni Fecit Brixiae etc", you should hide the label much better. I'd say that the sound post crack is not so bad as bass bar crack is, but it is not good too. Beside, I like the sides of bridge. Interesting bow. Is it the silver tip?
MamaTorra Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Posted March 11, 2014 "Philippo Brandilioni Fecit Brixiae etc", you should hide the label much better. I'd say that the sound post crack is not so bad as bass bar crack is, but it is not good too. Beside, I like the sides of bridge. Interesting bow. Is it the silver tip? What?? How did you see that? I specifically didn't put that photo in the set. Oh well. Thanks for the replies. I knew as soon as I got this that it was trouble. I want to learn how to do some basic fixes, but these are most definitely not basic! I'll either keep it as a learning experience — pop the top off and investigate, then take it really slow — or return it to the seller (I have 12 more days of my 14). If you paid $300 for this, what would you do? Keep and fix, or send it back?
FiddleDoug Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 I agree with Jacob. Many major problems with this one. The cost to repair them would be quite high.
martin swan Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 I think it's a great fiddle to practice repairs on - a bit pricey at $300 (I'd have given you this for free), but whether the price was fair depends on whether the problems were disclosed. It's quite a challenge to get so many classic repairs on one violin, so I say keep it!
franciscus Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 What?? How did you see that? I specifically didn't put that photo in the set. Oh well. Thanks for the replies. I knew as soon as I got this that it was trouble. I want to learn how to do some basic fixes, but these are most definitely not basic! I'll either keep it as a learning experience — pop the top off and investigate, then take it really slow — or return it to the seller (I have 12 more days of my 14). If you paid $300 for this, what would you do? Keep and fix, or send it back? This photo? My two coins: if you can fix these things by yourself, do that. If not (i.e. if you have to pay for repair), return it to the seller and take your money back. There is a lot of cheap old violins around, much more suitable for DIY repairs.
MamaTorra Posted March 11, 2014 Author Report Posted March 11, 2014 It's quite a challenge to get so many classic repairs on one violin, so I say keep it! That's exactly what I was thinking, Martin! I could buy a few different fixer-uppers to get access to all these issues and end up spending about the same amount in the end (I don't know a lot of people willing to throw old fiddles at me for free). At least it was good at one point so hopefully it can be good again. Even with all this mess it has a lovely sound - I couldn't resist taking it for a spin. It's now all safely torn down again so no more pressure on those poor old cracks. Re: disclosure, the listing did said 'cracks'. But it didn't say anything about the head and neck issues and they weren't very visible in the photos, so I've asked if they might be willing to refund a portion of what I paid and still let me keep it. I doubt the seller is going to want to deal with reselling it now that he knows it's going to cost a bundle to repair and it's not anything super special anyway. We'll see. I'll probably keep it anyway. Yes, Franciscus - I omitted that picture from the set. Next time I won't upload it since security settings are apparently beyond me. Here's hoping I have better luck with bass bar cracks!
Fiddler45 Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 Sometimes it doesn't matter if the seller is "aware "of the problems or not. I bought a maggini off ebay last year that said "no cracks in the top" and when i got it, there was an obvious crack in the rib,not pictured of course, plus a small sound post crack in the back that was not visible in the picture. After some argument, I returned it, along with a note saying why. Next week, the same ad was up again, with the exact same pictures. No mention in the new ad of the issues i raised. Buyer, beware!
franciscus Posted March 11, 2014 Report Posted March 11, 2014 Two more coins: maybe you should spend some time searching for "Brandilioni violin" as well as for "Brandiglioni violin", you could find a lot of interesting things, i.e. see this: http://www.amati.com/index.php?option=com_amati&view=maker&id=91781&Itemid=1074. A lot of details (Maggini copy, Mittenwald school, varnish...) say that you, just maybe, have a real McCoy (actually - MacKay, but that's another story) and, in this light, $300 (w/o possible partial refund) does not seem too much, in fact, it could be bargain.
MamaTorra Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Posted March 12, 2014 Franciscus, I'm an insatiable researcher and I found every detail I could about Brandi(g)lion before I bought this (there is surprisingly little online). The description is consistent with the Amati/Brompton's description, albeit very broad, as is the year on label (1832) which is 2 years before he died. That said, I bought knowing full well it probably wasn't real. But… maybe I'll email Amati for their free appraisal just for kicks.
MamaTorra Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Posted March 12, 2014 Email and pics have been sent to Amati. Will report back when I know something (could be up to 4 weeks). Thanks for playing, all!
franciscus Posted March 12, 2014 Report Posted March 12, 2014 Franciscus, I'm an insatiable researcher and I found every detail I could about Brandi(g)lion before I bought this (there is surprisingly little online). The description is consistent with the Amati/Brompton's description, albeit very broad, as is the year on label (1832) which is 2 years before he died. That said, I bought knowing full well it probably wasn't real. But… maybe I'll email Amati for their free appraisal just for kicks. Oh, you've done your homework Most of sources I've found say only that mr. Brandi(g)lioni mostly made Maggini's copies, one of them says that he worked on Amati's pattern (I cannot find it right now), but the data about his origin and death is rather unclear.The date on your label is in accordance with John Dilworth (Amati's site), who said that he worked in Brescia from 1775 till 1834. Edit: ...but, regarding the label, it is always wise to read what Jacob Saunders wrote here: http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330169-viola-labeled-lavazza/?p=620489, especially because mr. Brandi(g)lioni was (according to the sources available to me) actually German maker (regardless of the location of his workshop), tightly connected with Mittenwald.
MamaTorra Posted March 12, 2014 Author Report Posted March 12, 2014 Edit: ...especially because mr. Brandi(g)lioni was (according to the sources available to me) actually German maker (regardless of the location of his workshop), tightly connected with Mittenwald. Yes - I saw that too. German with an Italianized name. I found only one photo of a Brandiglioni violin online (also on Ebay, who knows it was real) and it was REALLY different than mine. Super dark finish, not a Maggini, none of the characteristics described of B. It's actually discussed on the Auction Scroll back in October of last year. http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329300-any-guesses/ Whatever mine is it sure it fun sleuthing!
MamaTorra Posted March 15, 2014 Author Report Posted March 15, 2014 Top is off and I didn't break it in the process! Super interesting old repairs (at least to me, since I'm new at this). See Flickr album. Onward…
Rue Posted March 16, 2014 Report Posted March 16, 2014 You are a brave soul! And that is some bassbar repair!
franciscus Posted March 16, 2014 Report Posted March 16, 2014 Nice pictures, MamaTorra! is the area around bass bar stable?
MamaTorra Posted March 16, 2014 Author Report Posted March 16, 2014 Nice pictures, MamaTorra! is the area around bass bar stable? It's stable on one crack, the other side not so much. I'm going to work it off and see how it goes. A friend of mine just did a similar fix with a long patch rather then cleats. Thoughts on that?
Jeff White Posted March 16, 2014 Report Posted March 16, 2014 I wouldn't do a patch on that, the length is too long and not to mention the amount of original wood that would be removed........and a few other reasons. I would redo all of those cracks, as even if holding, they are so dirty, they can't be at their best, your call. I would definately put cleats with each covering all cracks laterally, not individual (think strap), and NOT inlaid. Have the strap type cleats not in a perfect rectangle, the bevel the ends at 45 degress because there has been so many problems with multiple cracks along the grain, don't need to add to that. I don't put too many cleats with the grain at 90 degrees, but I worry that opening up old long cracks, cleaning them and reglueing, that they won't be as strong as I might like, so I think grain running perpendiculare would be a good idea here to keep too much flexing going on laterally. Then, fit your bass bar over them. jeff
MamaTorra Posted March 16, 2014 Author Report Posted March 16, 2014 Great - the strap idea was what I was thinking, except I hadn't thought about not putting them in a perfect rectangle. That makes a ton of sense. Thank you, Jeff!
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