Carl Stross Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Well, that's great! Carl thinks my violins are amazing. Sure, but "amazing" is not what it used to be.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apartmentluthier Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Bite your tongue , oh silicon valley fakir. Watch what city you nick name! We still have no professional football team, but do have Midori, Shindarov, Harel, etc. Maybe we have our priorities in order? There are lots of great shops: Cauer, Weishaar (Ettinger now), Metzler, Muller, Benning, etc. None of these guys run out of their apartment, though we think some of them are so dedicated they practically live there...And many luthiers from one man shops, too. Plus some not so great luthiers, though they think they are good. Let's see, there's the summer maker's camp at Pomona, LA Phil, New West, LA Opera, need I go on? As far as schools with great violin programs, there is U$C, UCLA, and the Coburn school. Heifetz's original studio is now at the Coburn school. Need I go on? La La Land may refer to: A euphemism for a state of unconsciousness You clearly missed both the both reference and the humor intended. La La Land is NOT only a reference to LA. I simply thought that the location listed by the poster was funny. I was in no way making an attempt to insult any of the fine shops or persons you listed in your rant. Interesting that you call me a fakir when my identity is available to anyone, yet you appear to be a hiding troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeyerFittings Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Martin, with all due respect. on a public forum, expressions like " is a criminal " might need rephrasing. I admire you zeal in expressing your ethics but It might be the point in this particular discussion where everybody toned it down a notch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Sound is not a consideration in pricing - anyone prepared to do the legwork can find a stupendously good violin, new or old, for £20,000 or less. Sound is a consideration in pricing, at least to most musician buyers. They are often willing to pay more for the sound they prefer. Let's say I have two violins available, one for 25K and another for 30K. Same label, and both new. If a client much prefers the more expensive violin and has the budget, will they purchase it? You betcha! And many who have looked extensively have not found what they were looking for under 20K. If they have not yet looked extensively, I encourage them to do so. I understand the value of the axiom that sound isn't related to price, but it's just an axiom. In the real world, values attached to a maker's name often do have a general relationship to sound. "The difference between what Sam Z would charge for a new violin and the price being asked by this seller is entirely to do with provenance ie. this was my violin (or in this case one of my violins), I'm a famous player, I have added value to the violin. The seller is asking us to make a direct comparison between the value she adds to a Sam Z violin by having owned it and the value that Isaac Stern added to a Sam Z violin by owning it. She claims by the asking price that she adds more value than he did." Lots of assumptions there. You probably don't know this violin. I do. You might feel differently if you had heard it compared against a selection of "cherry-picked" violins in a hall, as I have. Is it worth the asking price to someone? Depends on the buyer, I reckon. "As for what a great new violin should cost, there are a lot of perspectives on this. On the one hand you might argue that a fluid and undistracted professional maker can produce 4 violins a month, and that therefore a high unit price might be $15,000." I'll agree that it's possible to make four "violins" per month. I'm somewhat skeptical that these would be high-quality violins, with consistently good sound. "On the other hand, you might recognise that a certain kind of player just isn't going to buy a new violin if it's too cheap. I don't know what Sam Z charges, but in Christophe Landon's inimitable phrase "sexy girl is not going to marry plumber" - you have to tailor your pricing to the clientele you're pursuing." I think of both Sam and Christophe as old friends. Sure, they have different perspectives on things. I wouldn't have any issue with a contemporary maker charging 50K, or even 100K, not as a marketing gimmick, because I'm intimately familiar with the time and effort which can go into education and experimentation, even attempting to make a really good instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Sorry Eric I wasn't being that serious. There have been numerous instances where members of this forum have been harangued as criminals for over-selling instruments - I find that an interesting point of comparison. I really am not expressing an ethical position, and if you read my post (69) I wasn't advancing a position at all, just following the logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 David, I think/hope you have misunderstood everything I was saying. 1. In the case of this violin, it may be heavenly, but its sound doesn't justify the sale price - the sale price is based on the seller's idea of added value, and on some very atypical auction results. 2. I'm not arguing that any maker should sell their violins for $15,000 or more or less - I don't have a position on that. I presented that as an extreme end of a spectrum of opinion, indeed I think there are a lot of great makers on this forum who'd think that $15K was quite a lot to charge. I rather like Christophe Landon's perspective - I think it's refreshing and true. I'm sorry if you've heard some sort of criticism because there is none intended or made. 3. Would someone pay more for a violin that sounded better? Mostly players pay more for violins that sound worse, choosing crappy old Italians over great modern violins. Sure, if there were two Burgesses on the table and one sounded better to me and was $5K more, I would choose that one, but would that happen? Do you price your violins on sound? 4. I am sure that if you had no distractions you could make four violins in a month, and they would all be great. Didn't mean to rub you or anyone else up the wrong way - I think this is really interesting stuff, and worthy of dispassionate debate. I'm a bit surprised that what I thought was very measured is being read as extreme and over-zealous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeyerFittings Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I really don't like using the emoticons to express inseriousity, but sometimes you just gotta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 2. I'm not arguing that any maker should sell their violins for $15,000 or more or less - I don't have a position on that. And right you are : http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/id.25545/title.diddy-jay-z-dr-dre-top-forbes-cash-kings-2013-list Imagine Dr. Dre get's into making violins.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I wouldn't have any issue with a contemporary maker charging 50K, or even 100K, not as a marketing gimmick, because I'm intimately familiar with the time and effort which can go into education and experimentation, even attempting to make a really good instrument. I'll let this one slide.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 4. I am sure that if you had no distractions you could make four violins in a month, and they would all be great. I really don't think I can come close to that, but I take some consolation in Strad not being able to do it either (as far as we know). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'm a bit surprised that what I thought was very measured is being read as extreme and over-zealous. On MN ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 And right you are : http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/id.25545/title.diddy-jay-z-dr-dre-top-forbes-cash-kings-2013-list Imagine Dr. Dre get's into making violins.... That's Jay Z not Sam Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 That's Jay Z not Sam Z He's got the "Z". He can rap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Russell Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I know I'm drifting further off the topic, but I'm not sure that there's any great correlation between the the time it takes to make an instrument and the quality (within reason). I have had it said to me that 'so and so charges so much, ( an exorbitant amount), but he only makes four a year.' In my view anyone making full time, and only making four a year, needs to practice. The best work comes when you're on a roll, spitting them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I know I'm drifting further off the topic, but I'm not sure that there's any great correlation between the the time it takes to make an instrument and the quality (within reason). I have had it said to me that 'so and so charges so much, ( an exorbitant amount), but he only makes four a year.' In my view anyone making full time, and only making four a year, needs to practice. Hard to say. Some really expensive makers have a pretty good amount of practice under their belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Russell Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I know, It's just that the great violins I've seen always have a spontaneity about them, that comes, I think, from practice, without too much soul searching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I know I'm drifting further off the topic, but I'm not sure that there's any great correlation between the the time it takes to make an instrument and the quality (within reason). I have had it said to me that 'so and so charges so much, ( an exorbitant amount), but he only makes four a year.' In my view anyone making full time, and only making four a year, needs to practice. The best work comes when you're on a roll, spitting them out. I dunno Conor. I can easily make a violin in a few days. In my career I have just followed work where it has come from and seem to get a fair bit of copy work these days...Some of these take months of research before I can hit the wood.( sorry if that sounds smart arsed...not meant to be...everything is difficult for me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Russell Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Oh all right then, APART from copy work Of course you're right, I was thinking of ordinary fiddles - and bows too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 When a dealer asks for a price that's regarded as exorbitant, the dealer is a criminal, so I'm not sure I agree that the seller is entitled to ask whatever price they choose. That aside, let's take it back to basics. First, concerning the above. A dealer is by profession, a dealer. A person who has knowledge which he or she can use to benefit a client... or unfortunately, in some cases take advantage of a client. An owner, who is not a dealer, is most usually not in quite the same position. There is a bit of a difference, and this difference has been exercised in court concerning the arts, collectibles and antique trades. Second (not in response to Martin specifically), I hoped that things might settle a little after my last post... and Roger made a more direct observation concerning discussion of currently productive makers and pricing... While I'm not really against that sort of discussion within context and with some ground rules or boundaries, I think this situation is not one that it is wise to tread into with heavy boots. What is being discussed here is someone else's property and the price they are asking for it. You could argue it's justified, or not... but it's an article that has been offered by the owner. Any comment concerning it's value to another in a public forum has potential to be inappropriate (or damaging), in my opinion. If you're a pro, the appropriate method to comment is confidentially, in private... and then only to someone who has hired you to advise them. Also, as a pro, I think it would be just as important to point out the differences in market, provenance, venue, and instrument (which means you'd actually have to understand them) involved in a past sale compared to a present offering before using that data to justifying or question an asking price. If someone is not a pro... well... they are not a pro... so they really can't (or shouldn't) comment as a pro and their opinions shouldn't be weighted the same as a pros... but any public comment, made by someone with little or no expertise, may have similar consequences in the end... even though it was probably made with less information, and/or less understanding of that information... "'cause on the internet, no one really knows that you're actually a dog". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hart Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 My God! This thread has more speculating than a TAB on Melbourne cup race day! David, if you ever plan on making four violins in a month, I'll sponsor the energy drinks! How many people here have actually seen or played one of Sam's instruments? I had the opportunity a couple of years ago, and for a young maker, its something worth aspiring to! (There are a few other contemporaneous makers I'd love to see in person too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I agree with Jeffery, this Violin is being sold now, a current endeavor. MN has large readership, I would not want anyone's speculative opinion, valid or not to taint my opportunity to procure top dollar, realistic or not starting price. I'm sure this woman, regardless of what she eventually gets will be counting on getting whatever she can in order to get something else, or perhaps she is in dire straights and need the money to live on, either way I don't think its morally correct to talk about this womans financial quest for our entertainment purposes. I would rather we wait until she has sold it to talk about it. I would want for her the same I would want for myself, I understand that it is public information, but that still does not mean we should not have any couth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 How many people here have actually seen or played one of Sam's instruments? I traded fiddles with Sam at an Oberlin jam session; it was one he had recently completed. It was better than mine, I thought. Very nice. He knows what he's doing. He's a human, though, and makes violins out of wood, as far as I know, and that kinda precludes supernatural powers. That's not to be taken as an insult, just reality. He is an excellent craftsman. Some others are, too. I could aspire all I want, and I doubt I could match his woodworking skills, or that of Burgess. Sound, maybe. Price, yeah, I can aspire forever on that one, too. Oh, wait... I can set whatever price I want! Selling is another matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtlVcl Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Christopher - no one is "rubbing" Sam's work; we're speculating on the price at which one particular violin is being offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NyViola Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Prices can certainly vary, but so does production and output, and sometimes a quickly made violin shows. I've seen a number of later Peressons that were probably made in a week . . . and it showed. They were loud, but I've never been a fan of their sound. I also just went to a maker's workshop who has only produced, on average, 3/4 instruments a year, over the last 55/60 years or so. He showed me a few things that occupy a lot of his time (in terms of unbelievably detailed wood selection), and I can completely understand why he works so slowly. The instruments are also absolutely flawless in terms of workmanship, both looking and sounding beautiful. They're also priced along the lines of Sam Z's work, but you do understand what you're paying for. As far as this particular instrument, I'm sure there's some additional value to be had in skipping the years of waiting (i believe it can take 3-5 or more years now), and in having an instrument which has reached a certain maturity, but doubling the price? Too rich for my blood, but I'm sure someone out there doesn't feel like waiting for half a decade and wants a powerful solo instrument. As a tool alone, there are many more expensive ways to get less function out of a violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 If you're a pro, the appropriate method to comment is in private... and then only to someone who has hired you to advise them. Also, as a pro, I think it would be just as important to point out the differences in market, provenance, venue, and instrument (which means you'd actually have to understand them) involved in a past sale compared to a present offering before using that data to justifying or question an asking price. If you're not a pro... well... you're not a pro... so you really can't comment as a pro... but any public comment may have similar consequences... and would probably be made with less information, and/or less understanding of that information... "'cause on the internet, no one really knows that you're actually a dog". Sorry Jeffrey, I don't understand. The violin is advertised for sale on violinist.com for a slightly eyebrow-raising price - as you've said yourself in other contexts, if someone is selling online, they have every reason to expect comment. I have learnt that lesson the hard way! Whether that comment is from professionals or not (what's the definition?) doesn't necessarily have a bearing on whether it's relevant or illuminating, and I think professionals should be free to express general opinions on Maestronet. I would rather disagree violently with an identifiable professional who has something at stake than with an anonymous amateur in search of an argument This is a forum in which we discuss all sorts of matters pertaining to violins. I think the question of "added value" through provenance in relation to new violins is quite important and should be discussed, and it's best discussed with reference to an example or two. This violin is a very interesting example, and I don't believe that a bit of pro/con disagreement is going to influence the sale price any more negatively than positively. This is the world we have created - everything gets discussed publicly, and the seller has to accept that. In fact I think the seller has invited that, perhaps accidentally, perhaps not. Anyway, I see I am in a minority. I am happy to refrain from offering opinions on this particular sale, and will edit the comments I have made revealing my own thoughts on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.