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Shostakofieff

Increasing Resale value of a violin

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Interesting, though...There's no increasing resale value yet.  The seller is losing money on the original purchase, with hours to go, and given the price of a set-up, with pegs, tailpiece, and strings, I'm not seeing a very promising business model here.

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With a day to go and most serious budding happening in the last 30 seconds I expect this will sell for at least twice what it was purchased for. Hilarious and very good catch OP. Let's play a guessing game about final price. I'm guessing $950. Right now it's at $355.

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I expect that this auction ends with classical "seller has no item available", if the price stays under 500 and something. This is pretty often these days on eBay, without consequences to seller, as far as I can see. Keen eye you have, Shostakofieff!

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Nice .... well spotted.

I'm afraid this is an everyday occurrence on Ebay.

Yes, this is a criminal act, but impossible to police or report. In order for Ebay to take action you have to be the copyright or moral rights owner. Since all bidding and feedback ids are now undisclosed there's no way of contacting a buyer to point out what's gone on. Although this is internet fraud, there is no organization which will look into this sort of petty crime. Possibly the only way to get on top of someone like this would be to assume that they play fast and loose with taxes as well and shop them to the Inland Revenue (or US equivalent) who are always strangely interested in the activities of 2-bit players - judging by their feedback they're making a packet ....!

Essentially Ebay is thrilled to take its fee, and only reacts to major brand owners like Nike, Apple etc.

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eBay responds to any small time brand owner if registered through the vero system. You can usually find out the buyer's identity once they leave feedback on seller's account so someone could contact the winning bidder if you have the patience and interest to do so.

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I confirm the photo match.

 

Seller's in Chicago area, so one wonders if they are associated with any of the violin businesses there.  Evanston's not all that far from Milwaukee.  Wonder if they have any interesting Italians for sale as German right now? :blink:

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The original seller is aware of the situation and is attempting to do something ...

In this case VERO doesn't apply since the VERO "owner" would be Paolo de Barbieri, not any given owner of the violin.

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Very well spotted, Shostakofieff, how did you do it? Are you keeping your own ebay database or something? :)

 

It's frustrating to not be able to alert anyone about this. I was also wondering about this one which if genuine would be worth a lot of money. It's skillfully made and ticks a lot of boxes, but now I see how easily the branding can be done. The very cheap price also makes it suspicious.

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Is this actually illegal? He doesn't say with 100% certainty that it is Italian, he doesn't say who branded the violin, he doesn't say who put the label in the violin, or that it is authentic. All he is saying, is what he can see on the violin. (Which he most likely put there himself) He also removes himself from being held responsible from anything he "speculates" on, by the description:

 

"I'm an enthusiast and admirer of string instruments, and not an expert in the field of fine instrument, no part of my description should be taken as expert opinion.  The photos are part of description and displayed to guide you to your own conclusions. I'll do my best to describe the item as accurately as possible, but there may be issues I've failed to recognize, and I will not be responsible for it. Do post your questions before you bid, and before the end of the auction; I will respond."

 

If you wanted, you could put anything on a violin, brand it if you wanted, put a signature in, another label, whatever you want to. Then just describe what you see on the violin, without saying that YOU were the one who put it there. Is this morally wrong? YES. Is this a con? Yes. But can it be proven?

 

Please don't think I'm condoning this in any way, as this is wrong. But sadly, I doubt anything will legally happen to him for this, besides perhaps having some problems with eBay.

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*****

Essentially Ebay is thrilled to take its fee, and only reacts to major brand owners like Nike, Apple etc.

eBay responds to any small time brand owner if registered through the vero system.

****

****

In this case VERO doesn't apply since the VERO "owner" would be Paolo de Barbieri, not any given owner of the violin.

Martin, I was simply responding to your incorrect assertion that eBay only protects major brand owners. But you are correct that there is probably no living rights owner, (except possibly the living heirs of Barbieri) that would have their Intellectual Property rights violated by this auction.

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Ahem.  Kallie, the title is "OLD VIOLIN ITALIAN...".  Sounds like blatant fraud to me.

 

Indeed, but he does say hes not an expert in violins and "no part of my description should be taken as expert opinion."

 

Plus, it says "Italian Labeled" It doesn't say it was actually made in Italy, or that the maker was Italian.

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Ahem.  Kallie, the title is "OLD VIOLIN ITALIAN...".  Sounds like blatant fraud to me.

I'm not defending the seller AT ALL but your selective quote is equally misleading and unhelpful.

 

The title states: "OLD VIOLIN ITALIAN LABELED AND STAMPED PAOLO DE BARBIERI 1960" all of which is technically true.

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And for the record, I'm posting screencaps below that will survive the expiration of these eBay auctions:

 

Here is the original legit listing:

 

ebay-german-violin-1_zps8428e72b.png

 

ebay-german-violin-2_zps5df8df1f.png

 

ebay-german-violin-3_zps2d830b19.png

 

and Here's the one that I consider illegal and fraudulent:

 

ebay-fraud-violin-1_zps0428b87e.png

 

ebay-fraud-violin-2_zps8ab3145f.png

 

ebay-fraud-violin-3_zps2744fa96.png

post-66674-0-93363700-1391185955_thumb.png

post-66674-0-40093500-1391185968_thumb.png

post-66674-0-14007100-1391185980_thumb.png

post-66674-0-14726600-1391185994_thumb.png

post-66674-0-02857400-1391186007_thumb.png

post-66674-0-04588600-1391186017_thumb.png

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Yes, very difficult to defend someone who has clearly relabelled and rebranded a violin for the purposes of villainy. I really don't hold with the notion of "it's Ebay, anything goes" - this is fraud in any context. 

 

BassClef, I've been through this a number of times with contemporary makers who were being "copied" and who did submit VERO claims (including Roger Hargrave if I remember rightly). Ebay didn't take a blind bit of notice.

I'm sure Kallie isn't condoning this sort of relabelling, merely pointing out that it would be hard to persuade anyone that it was worth investigating, although with police powers it would be pretty easy to prove.

Cynically one might point out that this phenomenon (relabelling & branding for profit ie. passing off) isn't restricted to Ebay by any means.

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I'm sure Kallie isn't condoning this sort of relabelling, merely pointing out that it would be hard to persuade anyone that it was worth investigating, although with police powers it would be pretty easy to prove.

Cynically one might point out that this phenomenon (relabelling & branding for profit ie. passing off) isn't restricted to Ebay by any means.

 

That is correct, I'm in no way condoning this. I buy almost all my violins that I repair and then sell again on eBay. These violins are the normal German made violins, which some might consider rubbish, but which still has a better sound than most Chinese factory violins in the same, if not higher price range. I don't sell on eBay though.

 

When I sell a violin, I show it to the person interested, and describe it for what it is. I sell it for its sound quality. The label is the last thing I concern myself with, since the usual violins I deal with are copies of Guarneri, Stradivari, Amati etc. 

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Yes, very difficult to defend someone who has clearly relabelled and rebranded a violin for the purposes of villainy. I really don't hold with the notion of "it's Ebay, anything goes" - this is fraud in any context. 

Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that one type of slippery leads to another type of slippery - sewer-rats who sell mutton dressed as lamb on Ebay and sleep well at night are probably also operating on the black market and under the tax radar. Get enough people doing that and your economy collapses, and everyone is f***ed.

BassClef, I've been through this a number of times with contemporary makers who were being "copied" and who did submit VERO claims (including Roger Hargrave if I remember rightly). Ebay didn't take a blind bit of notice.

I'm sure Kallie isn't condoning this sort of relabelling, merely pointing out that it would be hard to persuade anyone that it was worth investigating, although with police powers it would be pretty easy to prove.

Cynically one might point out that this phenomenon (relabelling & branding for profit ie. passing off) isn't restricted to Ebay by any means.

They are most likely doing it wrong. If you register as a verified rights owner you are given a separate eBay account which you can use to report listings and I have first hand knowledge that eBay responds very very swiftly and takes the mattes very seriously. I've personally shut down countless eBay listings and sellers will get a mark in their account which is serious as well. And I was not claiming on behalf of a world famous brand like Nike.

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How to increase resale value of a German violin?

 

Step one:

 

Buy a German violin:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231090433263?item=231090433263&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466

 

 

Step two:

 

Sell it as Italian.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231145389393?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

Voila...

As a commited non-ebayist, I would probably make a fool of myself, asking what people think of this?

http://www.ehow.com/how_8386956_report-fraud-ebay.html?ref=Track2&utm_source=ask

Is it a curious co-incidence that the OP “Shostakofieff” and the ebay miscreant “sprov1” both remind me vaguely of Russian composers, or am I going mad?

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