Jeffrey Holmes Posted January 29, 2014 Report Share Posted January 29, 2014 I've been told that several shops, including Wurlitzer, played with a color mixture called "tutti gialli" (all yellows). The buildup of this stuff definitely goes orange/red. It's a bit fugitive though, and one of the ingredients is quite toxic. If one looks at the varnish on many Becker violins, the areas that have worn thin are quite yellow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
franciscus Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 "German varnish rarely contains much of a red element, although Czech varnish does. Also, if it chips easily, it sounds very much like the rosin-rich (overly rich) typical Czech 1950's-60's 'Barley-Sugar' varnish, developed to dry quickly in unheated factory paint shops, but very brittle, becoming moreso with age." Copy-paste from: http://www.theviolinman.co.uk/messages/1004.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't do any deliberate wood tanning (aside from what might occur during varnish drying). But maybe my varnish sucks. what happens if your varnish wears away? Does it expose stark white wood? Or is there a ground that has some color? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Violadamore Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 In my opinion, a "great" orange or red varnish appears yellow in a thin coat, and builds up to an orange or red as the coating gets thicker. I'm not a proponent of trying to apply deliberately different color layers. Not that it can't work, but I don't think that's what the Cremonese did. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. You're saying don't do this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Violadamore Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Here's an example of what I'm talking about. You're saying don't do this? 2-part-orange-varnish.jpg And here's a tag to open . Jeffrey, while I was uploading this, I noticed that the uploader was showing the bar full and the sizes equal instantaneously. Since I'm on dialup, that never happens, it takes me about 2 minutes for something like this, which it did, but with the bar complete and the sizes equal the whole time. That's a bug. Please tell your techs, maybe it will help them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Burgess Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 what happens if your varnish wears away? Does it expose stark white wood? Or is there a ground that has some color? Depends on what you mean by "stark white". A fresh scratch on an original-varnish area of a Strad can be surprisingly white, much whiter than the color of "worn" areas. Worn areas are typically much darker than wood or ground which has been protected by varnish, and are not representative of the real ground or wood color. A lot of this is from application of dirty French polish (you can see this when removing it with solvent on a white rag), and some may be from exposure to perspiration and UV once the varnish was worn away. At the Weisshaar shop, we had one really well preserved (at that time) Strad come in which had been set down on an alcohol rag used for cleaning strings. This fresh bare spot was amazingly light, much whiter than wood/ground I've seen on some modern fiddles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 So you don't darken the wood itself but do you put some kind of colored ground to get some base color under the varnish? or do you just put the varnish right over the white wood? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter K-G Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 And here's a tag to open . Jeffrey, while I was uploading this, I noticed that the uploader was showing the bar full and the sizes equal instantaneously. Since I'm on dialup, that never happens, it takes me about 2 minutes for something like this, which it did, but with the bar complete and the sizes equal the whole time. That's a bug. Please tell your techs, maybe it will help them. The admin team has bigger problems than that. IIS (Internet Information Services) on their Windows Server is broken and access to file system is faulty. They have also suffered from some malicious code, that probably could be the root cause to this whole image problem. (Give me an hour with the server ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Melvin Goldsmith Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't do any deliberate wood tanning (aside from what might occur during varnish drying). But maybe my varnish sucks. Hi David, I think the general consensus where it counts is that your varnish is pretty damn cool. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Violadamore Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 The admin team has bigger problems than that. IIS (Internet Information Services) on their Windows Server is broken and access to file system is faulty. They have also suffered from some malicious code, that probably could be the root cause to this whole image problem. (Give me an hour with the server ) Malicious code? Oh dear, you mean they're running Windows 8? :lol: 1 "I have a single word for you. Linux!" 1. Yes, I noticed Windows Server, but the line was too good to pass up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Michael_Molnar Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 In my opinion, a "great" orange or red varnish appears yellow in a thin coat, and builds up to an orange or red as the coating gets thicker. I'm not a proponent of trying to apply deliberately different color layers. Not that it can't work, but I don't think that's what the Cremonese did. You described a dichromatic varnish: the color depends on the amount of varnish between the incident light and the observer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joerobson Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Bergonzi "orange" on we go, Joe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Michael_Molnar Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I cannot open this Bergonzi photo. MaestroNOT is back to its old tricks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Urban Luthier Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Bergonzi "orange" on we go, Joe lets see if quoting your post will make the image viewable. this has worked in other MN threads. Edit -- nope didn't work. MN is not working properly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Beard Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 They fixed the workaround!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uguntde Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 proper grounding? What is proper grounding? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter K-G Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Maybe this will help admin to find the problem http://www.maestrone...d-images/page-2 Bigger size images works smaller do not. Did not have time to examine where the limit is but that's how the "bug" works http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329858-peter-kg-upload-image-test-please-remove/#entry615176 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeC Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 What is proper grounding? that's what I'd like to know. I have my own ideas but wonder what others mean by that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter K-G Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 that's what I'd like to know. I have my own ideas but wonder what others mean by that. When it enhances the woods natural beauty and highlights the contrast between dark and light in the Wood - without staining it. But! It is possible to make a violin look really great with only dark colored transparent varnish on top of a sealer like gelatine or egg mixture. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnCockburn Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Depends on what you mean by "stark white". A fresh scratch on an original-varnish area of a Strad can be surprisingly white, much whiter than the color of "worn" areas. Worn areas are typically much darker than wood or ground which has been protected by varnish, and are not representative of the real ground or wood color. A lot of this is from application of dirty French polish (you can see this when removing it with solvent on a white rag), and some may be from exposure to perspiration and UV once the varnish was worn away. At the Weisshaar shop, we had one really well preserved (at that time) Strad come in which had been set down on an alcohol rag used for cleaning strings. This fresh bare spot was amazingly light, much whiter than wood/ground I've seen on some modern fiddles. One thing that struck me at the Strad exhibition last year was that the unvarnished neck of the Alard (which I believe is original) is noticeably lighter in colour than the exposed wood/ground in the worn areas of the rest of the instrument. Don't know if we can draw any conclusions from that.....? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolfjk Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Looking at the Messie in good light and with good eyesight,one can see the scratches under the varnish. So it is likely that the "ground" is one or two coats of clear varnish. (this is what I gathered from the Clair Barlow talk at Newark) The difference in colour between the fresh chipped varnish and the worn-down patch maybe that the "wearing down" pushes the varnish into the pores. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uguntde Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 There are these suggestions of vernice bianca - how commonly is this used? http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/259323-gum-arabic-in-vernice-bianca-ground-question/?p=259323 This comes probably from Sacconi's book, but I struggle with the idea to use something water based. I remember reading an article saying what seems to come out underneath the varnish of some Guarneri seems to be what looked liked shellac. Is it a good idea to use oil underneath? Does any body use Fulton's propolis soap? This would leave a yellow ground and have a pronounced antibacterial effect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joerobson Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 What is proper grounding? In this case, one needs a surface underneath the varnish that does not make the color of the varnish look weak, washed-out or to monochromatic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Yacey Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Does any body use Fulton's propolis soap? This would leave a yellow ground and have a pronounced antibacterial effect. Unfortunately it's also water based. I experimented with it, but found it to be too opaque for my taste. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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