More on the Messiah Strad, Le Messie

[Todd2]

This violin has been said to have been cherished by Stradivari so he did not sell it.  Then his son sold it to Count Cozio after Antonio's death.  Then Luigi Tarisio got it from Cozio.  Then after Tarisio's death Vuillaume got it from his family.  So Vuillaume made many copies of the Messiah Strad.  I wonder, since many think that Vuillaume actually made the Messiah and not Stradivari, if comparisons have been made side by side with one of his copies, and the one supposedly done by Stradivari.

        I just came across these very high definition photo's of one of Vuillaume's copy of the Messiah.  Very interesting indeed.  Click images to view huge pictures.

 

http://tarisio.com/wp/2012/02/the-messiah-and-a-copy-by-jean-baptiste-vuillaume-1873/

[Addie]

This violin has been said to have been cherished by Stradivari so he did not sell it.  

Any answers as to why he kept it are pure conjecture. The rest has been covered ad-nauseum here and elsewhere.

[Bill Yacey]

Or maybe he kept it because he made it specifically for a family member, or maybe because he considered it substandard in some way and didn't want to unleash it into public circulation.  There's any number of theories.

[Todd2]

Any answers as to why he kept it are pure conjecture. The rest has been covered ad-nauseum here and elsewhere.

My main purpose in the thread was to link the violin photos which were new to me. Yes this has been discussed but I did not see any discussion on comparing a Vuillaume copy of Le Messie to see how similar they are or are not.

[robertdo]

For those knowledgeable in Stradivarius violins, is there something in the craft (or else) on this copy that would immediately give away the fact that's it's only a copy (apart of course the label... )? Or is it so evident that there is no way to get confused even on pictures?

[MeyerFittings]

Did he antique a copy of an original that had no wear? Are the copie's corners rounded off though use or were they made that way? Is this a dumb question? I'm not firing on all cylinders today.

[Todd2]

Did he antique a copy of an original that had no wear? Are the copie's corners rounded off though use or were they made that way? Is this a dumb question? I'm not firing on all cylinders today.

It appears to me that the copy in the photographs was not antiqued, but the marks are from actual use, because most of the violin does not have "antiqued varnish".

[Rue]

Why did Vuillaume put different pegs on the Strad?  And why does this one have one different peg?

[MeyerFittings]

It says that one peg is broken. The pegs are hand carved so no reason that the sets are identical if that's what you mean.

[Rue]

Okay...one was broken (I didn't see that part in the description)...makes sense.  I suppose you'd have to get someone to carve a match?  Or put on a totally different set?  (Or just leave it as is?).  Thanks.

 

As far as the original Messiah goes...I assume it would have come with pegs that Strad made?  And Viuillame replaced them with a set of the ones pictured (didn't like the old ones?)  The original ones were broken [unlikely if it wasn't played], style changed?). 

 

Anyone know?

[John Harte]

My main purpose in the thread was to link the violin photos which were new to me. Yes this has been discussed but I did not see any discussion on comparing a Vuillaume copy of Le Messie to see how similar they are or are not.

 

This Vuillaume doesn't look anything like the Messiah to me....

 

[DarylG]

This violin has been said to have been cherished by Stradivari so he did not sell it.  

 

Or perhaps he couldn't sell it because it wasn't antiqued.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

 

So Vuillaume made many copies of the Messiah Strad.  I wonder, since many think that Vuillaume actually made the Messiah and not Stradivari...

 

I guess the "many" that believe it's a Vuillaume didn't notice Rocca was employing the model before "Vuillaume actually made" it in 1855.  

[Roger Hargrave]

There were quite a few instruments left when the Strad workshop was sold. Since times were hard in Cremona during this period, perhaps it was simply an instrument that, along with the others, was not sold. We revere it now because it looks new, but back then they were all new. And before a debate starts about why it might not have sold. Please remember that, for many reasons, a lot of great instruments have not sold immediately.

But now, please don't let us get into another is it isn't it debate. Any one who still thinks it isn't after all that has happened these last few years, doesn't deserve a voice on this site.

[Will L]

Sometimes when I look at the great violins, I think they look "architectural."  They may be more of a structure, in that they are more complicated than a pot and unlike a painting or sculpture,they must perform a function.  Louis Sullivan said:

 

...though Sullivan later attributed the core idea to Marcus Vitruvius Pollio the Roman architect, engineer and author who first asserted in his book De architectura that a structure must exhibit the three qualities of firmitas, utilitas, venustas – that is, it must be solid, useful, beautiful.^[2]. Here Sullivan actually said "form ever follows function", but the simpler (and less emphatic) phrase is the one usually remembered. For Sullivan this was distilled wisdom, an aesthetic credo, the single "rule that shall permit of no exception". The full quote is thus:

"It is the pervading law of all things organic and inorganic, of all things physical and metaphysical, of all things human and all things superhuman, of all true manifestations of the head, of the heart, of the soul, that the life is recognizable in its expression, 

that form ever follows function.

 

This is the law.

"

[

3

]

 

I can't think of too many things where the form follows the function more than a violin.

[Bill Yacey]

There were quite a few instruments left when the Strad workshop was sold. Since times were hard in Cremona during this period, perhaps it was simply an instrument that, along with the others, was not sold. We revere it now because it looks new, but back then they were all new. And before a debate starts about why it might not have sold. Please remember that, for many reasons, a lot of great instruments have not sold immediately.

But now, please don't let us get into another is it isn't it debate. Any one who still thinks it isn't after all that has happened these last few years, doesn't deserve a voice on this site.

I have to say this is the most blunt, to the point and plausible explanation.  I think the reverence and mystique was created by Tarisio between the French violin dealers as a marketing ploy over this particular instrument.

 

Most likely this violin was found in Stradivari's shop without strings and fittings, so there were no original pegs and tailpiece belonging to it. Had there been, I'm sure they would have been preserved with the instrument.

[Roger Hargrave]

I have to say this is the most blunt, to the point and plausible explanation.  I think the reverence and mystique was created by Tarisio between the French violin dealers as a marketing ploy over this particular instrument.

 

Most likely this violin was found in Stradivari's shop without strings and fittings, so there were no original pegs and tailpiece belonging to it. Had there been, I'm sure they would have been preserved with the instrument.

These fittings are from the Vuillaume shop and don't forget that this violin was 'modernised' from the original baroque.

[Roger Hargrave]

Sometimes when I look at the great violins, I think they look "architectural."  They may be more of a structure, in that they are more complicated than a pot and unlike a painting or sculpture,they must perform a function.  Louis Sullivan said:

 

...though Sullivan later attributed the core idea to Marcus Vitruvius Pollio the Roman architect, engineer and author who first asserted in his book De architectura that a structure must exhibit the three qualities of firmitas, utilitas, venustas – that is, it must be solid, useful, beautiful.^%5B2%5D. Here Sullivan actually said "form ever follows function", but the simpler (and less emphatic) phrase is the one usually remembered. For Sullivan this was distilled wisdom, an aesthetic credo, the single "rule that shall permit of no exception". The full quote is thus:

"It is the pervading law of all things organic and inorganic, of all things physical and metaphysical, of all things human and all things superhuman, of all true manifestations of the head, of the heart, of the soul, that the life is recognizable in its expression, that form ever follows function. This is the law."^%5B3%5D

 

I can't think of too many things where the form follows the function more than a violin.

Exactly! See the comment I just made on theme Artist or craftsperson. Post # 298

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Did Strad's spiral scroll design sound any better than his shield style or is this just a styling difference that was more popular at that time?

 

I suspect a lot of the violin's design is for styling rather than functional reasons.

[Bill Yacey]

These fittings are from the Vuillaume shop and don't forget that this violin was 'modernised' from the original baroque.

I was aware of the pegs and fittings being Vuillaume's work; my post was in response to previous post # 11.

[Kev Chanot]

These fittings are from the Vuillaume shop and don't forget that this violin was 'modernised' from the original baroque.

Are these fittings the same ones purchased by Albert Cooper from G.A.Chanot's successor ? If not,what happened to those?

[Addie]

Or perhaps he couldn't sell it because it wasn't antiqued.

[MeyerFittings]

Are these fittings the same ones purchased by Albert Cooper from G.A.Chanot's successor ? If not,what happened to those?

Albert Cooper wrote this article for the Strad in 1984. This cover photo is probably from his collection and is the same basic design as the St Cecile motif on the tailpiece of the Lady Blunt but a lot more sophisticated in execution. Same sophistication of carving and shape on Albert's tailpiece as that on the Messie.  He also showed a very fancy/shmancy Betts tailpiece as I recall.

 

Perhaps someone somewhere has a citation of whether the Messie was set up to play or not when it was delivered. It's certainly possible that it wasn't. The original fingerboard was retained from the Lady Blunt when it was converted, but not the fittings, it seems. Just the fact that they were't retained doesn't mean that there weren't any.  With the amount of early priceless Cremonese instruments still with us in orchestras and museums, how many examples of the original fittings are treasured and saved along with them?  I think they were relatively disdained like old tires or old shoes that were worn out and out of fashion in style and tossed. Only now that all things associated with these Masters are revered do we wish someone had held on to them.  

I would imagine that Sylvette Milliot would know if any of Vuillaume's fittings were saved. Perhaps the estate of Mr. Cooper has them. There are precious few collections of early extant fittings to look at and study. I can tell you that.

Roger might have some info that I don't.  

[Roger Hargrave]

I may have gotten my wires crossed here. It is always possible that these fittings were made by or for the Hill workshop. They did produce a lot of fine carved fittings. Its  just that somehow I seem to remember the Vuillaume thing being mentioned at the time that I was working at Hills and handling the Messiah every other week end. Maybe someone can enlighten us before the real story dies off.

[MeyerFittings]

Sorry if my post gave the wrong impression, I also assume that The Vuillaume shop made the fittings for the Messie, or farmed out the carving in France,  I see the same hand and style in the tailpiece that Albert Cooper showed on the 1981 Strad cover,which is why I shared it, but perhaps I shouldn't say that just from seeing it in a photo. I can imagine that Mr Cooper acquired this tailpiece from Chanot's estate who could have gotten them from the  leavings of the Vuillaume shop. I have the printed article somewhere and need to re-read it to see if he mentions this.Does anyone know when this acquisition happened? I am ashamed to say that I haven't read Mme. Milliot's book. perhaps she mentions some of this background. Is there some more information available about what items Mr Cooper acquired from the Chanot shop?

 

The Strad cover tailpiece is the same St Cecile motif as on the Lady Blunt tailpiece but it looks to be carved by another hand than the one depicted on Mr Cooper's Strad cover.  I used to think that I could spot the differences between the London based and the Paris based carvings and the treatment of the boxwood but now I am not so sure that I can. I would like to learn for my own edification if there are any citations stating who made what and when they were installed.  I'd also like to learn how and when the Hills started carving fittings and if they used any of Vuillaumes designs. I was wondering out loud about whether the Messie had original Cremonese fittings on it when it was delivered to Vuillaume and what ever might have happened to them after the conversion. Perhaps the violin arrived, not set up to play and there were no fittings on it to save. I've wondered about all this for a long time, and about the interaction between the two shops. Perhaps someone with more background and literary resources can help.. I'm trying to expand my admittedly limited knowlege of the history of fittings. Gather ye rosebuds where ye may.