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Kimmo89

Amati, Stradivari, Guarneri inside mold's

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I found it easy to disconnect the blocks with a little flat metal piece from the semicircular holes when making the first violin.

Then I drilled those in my walnut molds too before I sawed the slots.

It also gives the mold much nicer look.

 

This worked good with the plywood. I think the glue wont suck in walnut that good?

 

 

I dont know how Stradivari used them.

 

 

Kimmo

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I have a mold I made to an inside tracing of a 1742  Guarneri del Gesu and it also corresponds to your ub, mb, and lb widths to within .5 mm or less. Upper bout of my mold is 158, middle bout 103.5, lower bout 198. It measures 341 outside the blocks, so if you add the blocks and their curvature, it should come to 343-344 approximately. When I'm faced with starting a new model from scratch, I usually build one I call the "prototype", then measure and examine it to see if it corresponds to what I am trying to do.  From there I make whatever corrections to the mold, scroll pattern, etc, and do it again.  If you are working from an inside mold, and trying to come up with a historic copy, you may find the first time that you did little things differently than the maker of the original, like thicker ribs, wider margin, etc, so then you make the corrections to compensate for your style, or adapt your style to the maker you are copying.  Larry

 

Its too late when the shit is in the pants.

I already have made the C-bout little narrower.

 

But I think del Gesu had a nice gap between the mold and C ribs?

At least the purfling is much diffirent in hes violins.

 

But this is not the only Del Gesu mold im making.

Im now out of walnut already. Need more.

 

The proplem making a del Gesu mold is the diffirences in hes violins.

So we can only make a mold for one of his violins.

 

 

Kimmo

 

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What is the purpose of the semicircular holes seen in the forms at the top and bottom blocks? Some have one hole other have two. The hand tool guy in me says they were pre drilled before the upper and lower block cut outs were made to make it easy to do the horizontal cut with a bow saw.

 

Do they have a function in the making process?

 

thoughts?

 

strad forms have this in a variety of forms , some doubles,some singles , some shallow rectangles ,the half hole shape is more V shaped as if cut with a knife quickly, IMHO,They were for inserting a knife or wedge for separating the blocks of the violin from the form.

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strad forms have this in a variety of forms , some doubles,some singles , some shallow rectangles ,the half hole shape is more V shaped as if cut with a knife quickly, IMHO,They were for inserting a knife or wedge for separating the blocks of the violin from the form.

Maybe he didn't want to square up all of that end grain.

 

If you accidentally did get too much glue on a large flat surface and it spread out, it would be harder to free up the block for removal of the ribs.

 

Bruce

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DG only used one mold

Please cite at least one historically accurate reference source, giving measurements, and provide a picture of the "only mold" DG used -- if it is within your power to do so.

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Please cite at least one historically accurate reference source, giving measurements, and provide a picture of the "only mold" DG used -- if it is within your power to do so.

First read Roger's article in the big Guarneri book.

 

With the Cremonese system it is truly amazing how much you can vary the outline and still be using the same form. Smaller 'del Gesù' violins have a very compact border/edge overhang and vice versa.

 

Without an existing mould, the use of a single mould is obviously only theory, but it is a theory based on many observations, tracings, measurements and hands on making. 

 

Bruce

 

edited 21:58, Italian time.

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I ment that its too hard for now to know the exact measures and shape of Del Gesu mold.

All the violins from him are diffirent.

 

With my head, I cannot leave any gap between the mold and ribs, so I have to make a new Del Gesu mold everytime I find a good violin from him that I want to copy.

 

 

 

What is the typical thickness of viola mold?

How thick are the Stradivari viola molds?

 

With a cello mold, I was about to make 2 pieces of about 16-18mm walnut boards. Both identical and assembling it with some pushings between them so that the mold is easy to take apart too.

 

I would like to see a picture of the Stradivari cello mold if someone can upload it here.

And how thick are the cello molds?

 

 

 

Kimmo

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How thick are the Stradivari viola molds?

And how thick are the cello molds?

 

Kimmo

 

"Mahler" viola form :  16 mm

CV (contralto) viola form : 17 mm

TV (tenore) viola form : 17 mm

Cello form : 32.5 mm

 

From Pollens book.

 

Davide

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I have a couple of questions about the strad molds.

On the P mold there are a lot of lines going from holes, and around holes, that radiate to the edges.

 

If you were to add approx 2mm thick leather around the edges and bind them on using thread, then when the ribs are finished the thread can be cut so the mold just falls out.

 

Does this sound like a daft idea?

Does adding 2mm around the edge fit any molds to violins?

 

Also would glued leather be hard enough for holding the blocks or would wooden spacers be better to fill the gap?

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I have a couple of questions about the strad molds.

On the P mold there are a lot of lines going from holes, and around holes, that radiate to the edges.

 

If you were to add approx 2mm thick leather around the edges and bind them on using thread, then when the ribs are finished the thread can be cut so the mold just falls out.

 

Does this sound like a daft idea?

Does adding 2mm around the edge fit any molds to violins?

 

Also would glued leather be hard enough for holding the blocks or would wooden spacers be better to fill the gap?

The lines near the holes are more like knife cuts as it looks as though Stradivari was trimming the final length of his linings against the form, like a cutting block.

 

I understand what you mean but I can't see why anyone would want to use a similar method. It's an over complication of a straightforward simple procedure. It's actually quite easy to remove the completed rib structure with the linings on both sides already glued in place.

 

Bruce

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The lines near the holes are more like knife cuts as it looks as though Stradivari was trimming the final length of his linings against the form, like a cutting block.

 

I understand what you mean but I can't see why anyone would want to use a similar method. It's an over complication of a straightforward simple procedure. It's actually quite easy to remove the completed rib structure with the linings on both sides already glued in place.

 

Bruce

I assume that you mean that it is easy with both top and back linings trimmed.

Just wanted to make it clear for anyone new.

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Should have said it's looking at the MS6 mold. http://www.museodelviolino.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/forma_Stradivari.jpg

The lines radiate from the lower right holes and the upper left holes, also at the right of the neck block.

 

It was just a curious thought as I couldn't see any other reason for them as they match the normals to the curves (when you extend the lines), which suggests some form of binding of something unknown to the edge of the mold, noting the shallow angle required to produce them.

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I assume that you mean that it is easy with both top and back linings trimmed.

Just wanted to make it clear for anyone new.

You can see around the edges of the various moulds in the museum how there is wear and knife cuts adjacent to the areas of the mould outline where the linings would be found. This is a fairly clear demonstration the Stradivari trimmed down his linings, if not completely, then at least roughed out before he removed the rib construction from the form. 

 

I've taken them off without any roughing down, leaving them square, and you can still get them off without too much bother.

 

Bruce

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"Mahler" viola form :  16 mm

CV (contralto) viola form : 17 mm

TV (tenore) viola form : 17 mm

Cello form : 32.5 mm

 

From Pollens book.

 

Davide

 

Thank you.

 

I really need this book. Many things I want to see.

 

 

 

 

About the Stradivari mold wear.

Heres a good picture showing it.

PG has definetly been in much use. But I keep wondering, why he didnt care hes tools so much.

Of course it can wear a little with many hundred violins made from these, but still its not so hard to see where the saw or knife hits.

The wear making the grooves for linings in the corner blocks are very deep.

 

 

 

Kimmo

post-70317-0-46508400-1395356097_thumb.jpg

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Should have said it's looking at the MS6 mold. http://www.museodelviolino.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/forma_Stradivari.jpg

The lines radiate from the lower right holes and the upper left holes, also at the right of the neck block.

 

It was just a curious thought as I couldn't see any other reason for them as they match the normals to the curves (when you extend the lines), which suggests some form of binding of something unknown to the edge of the mold, noting the shallow angle required to produce them.

With a different direction for the lighting you would see that there are cuts all around the form. In the lighting direction they used for this photograph some have completely disappeared and others are very faint.

 

The lines you see are clearly cuts.

 

Bruce

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I have used similar moulds for a long time The one that I use for making copies in the style of the 'Lord Wilton' del Gesu looks very similar to the mould that you have illustrated. It is probably thirty years old. I have probably made close to one hundred violins on this mould. It has well rounded edges from the knife and two of the block cut outs have been repaired. Cutting back linings is not work that demands great skill or care. This is because even if you slip and knock a few chunks out, you can still use the mould over and over again and still make a beautifully clean instrument. That they did slip from time to time, can be seen on the inside of many Cremonese ribs, especially those of del Gesu. I think that I have said this to you before, but I make no apology for repeating this. You are getting too bogged down with minutia. Those that don't get started don't ever get finish.  

If you are thinking of leaving the world just one or two perfect fiddles, it is never going to happen. To get good, really good and to develop a style like Strad or David Burgess or any other good maker, you need to make lots of instruments on a regular basis. And you need to go on doing this until you are so sure of what you are doing that you no longer have to think about the process. Its called Zen and it applies as much to violin making as it does to motorcycle maintenance. I remember Rene Morel once asking me in his beautiful French accent, "Can you make the ships fly?" I was lost until someone explained that he was saying, "Can you make the chips (of wood) fly?" Meaning can you work quickly. He was right of course. Learn to make the ships fly, before you sink in a sea of detail.    

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Roger

Do you think that one can make a more accurately work if use a template (half a mould shape)  with corner or using that four individuals corners?
I am not thincking in a copy.

 

Regards
Tango

PS: Now I got my violin top (remember?). Many Thanks

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Roger

Do you think that one can make a more accurately work if use a template (half a mould shape)  with corner or using that four individuals corners?

I am not thincking in a copy.

 

Regards

Tango

PS: Now I got my violin top (remember?). Many Thanks

 

I think I understand what you are asking, but the answer is not simple. These days I would always work from an accurate mould. I would make this mould using an accurate half template. I would then cut out the two corners with a flat chisel and simply use these to mark out the four corner blocks. If course you can also use this same half template without cutting the corner lock templates out. This may make your overall outline very slightly more accurate, but this will depend upon drilling accurate holes in the mould for the templates locating pins. 

My preference is always to mark the individual corner blocks with the upper and lower small template simply because it trains the eye better. Remember style is not about accuracy. Style is something that you get through knowing your tools and being confident in what you are doing. It has little to do with accuracy even on a new violin which is not a copy. You can make eight accurate corners that are simply ugly. Conversely you can make eight corners that do not accurately match each other or your template, but they can nevertheless look beautiful and match each other aesthetically. I hope this helps.   

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 This may make your overall outline very slightly more accurate, but this will depend upon drilling accurate holes in the mould for the templates locating pins. 

 

 

Hi Roger

 

I think this is my problem.

The templates holes are not well centered . So I mark  the extreme point of corners with a divider (compás) to assure the simetry, and then draw the corners moving  the template. 

 
Hence I work with individual corners that are attached to the middle mould template, isn´t it?
 
Thanks for reply
Tango

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I think that I have said this to you before, but I make no apology for repeating this. You are getting too bogged down with minutia. Those that don't get started don't ever get finish.  

If you are thinking of leaving the world just one or two perfect fiddles, it is never going to happen. To get good, really good and to develop a style like Strad or David Burgess or any other good maker, you need to make lots of instruments on a regular basis. And you need to go on doing this until you are so sure of what you are doing that you no longer have to think about the process. Its called Zen and it applies as much to violin making as it does to motorcycle maintenance..    

 

These molds are not the only thing I am thinking or making.

I have many pages of notes about treating the wood to get the sound. These I get in my head when I get to sleep. In daytime I draw everything violin making related to paper and making some tools that I will need in future.

I would say that I am in violin making things 16 hours per day. (thanks for the european union theres no more other jobs to get) If im not doing it, im still thinking it.

 

At least in metal working - well scheduled is half done.

 

This all has to be done anyway.

 

Im not making all this for just couple of violins. I dont see a point there.

Im making these as long as I live. And as I said I have done much notes, so you can see that I have decided to get the best sound that is heard. Im not aiming any less. No point in violin making otherwise.

 

 

Kimmo

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Kimmo, I know what you are going through dreaming about violins. I’m sure everyone else on this site does too. We are all totally nuts, so we really do understand. But I still have to ask, how many instruments have you actually made? I don't know if you have actually told us this. If so I am sorry for asking. But it seems to me that you are too concerned with preparation when you should just be doing the job. With the possible exception of philosophers no one in the world has ever achieved anything just by thinking about it. At some point you have to actually do it and in the case of fiddles you have to do it as often as you can. When you have made a number of instruments a lot of your questions will have already have been answered and many other, far more important questions, will have arisen.  

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 With the possible exception of philosophers no one in the world has ever achieved anything just by thinking about it. At some point you have to actually do it 

 

Jesus, Roger ! There is only so many punches I can take... :wacko:

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