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Kimmo89

Amati, Stradivari, Guarneri inside mold's

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I got the Guarneri del Gesu Plowden poster and tried to get a mold out of it.

 

Violin inside measures:

157,5mm

103,8mm

198,3mm

 

I traced the purfling line and printed it to upper bout measure.

These are the measures I got.

345mm (with blocks)

157,5mm

102mm

199mm

 

Maybe I should print it to lower bout measure.

 

How can we know how much gap the makers left between the mold and ribs when they were gluing them.

 

But how does these measures sound?

Has anyone made del Gesu molds?

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Hi Kimmo,

 

I made a violin mold based on the "Plowden" earlier this year and my mold's dimensions seem to be very close to what you have posted for "violin inside measures."  I think it's been suggested that much of the variation in outline dimension between del Gesu's instruments resulted from differences in overhang and minor variations in fitting the rib garland to the inside mold, or in other words that he may have been using the same inside mold for much, if not all, of his career.  I always try to fit my ribs snug against the mold.  I made the violin with the slightly reduced mensure (body stop) of just over 192 mm (the original is reported as 191.0 on the treble side (Strad poster) and 191.5 (bass), 193.5 (treble) in the Biddulph book.  I spent (wasted?) a lot of time worrying about the geometry of the (really narrow) corners, but in the end I was happy with the result and it was snapped up as soon as it was finished.  Have fun and good luck!

 

Doug

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Hello Doug.

 

I see its only possible to make a mold for Plowden measures only.

 

 

I had another try.

 

This time I got it otherwise ok, but how does the lenght sound? Its measured with blocks.

I think it should be around 343-344mm. The poster has too unaccurate pictures in the back side.

And if you put the CT Scan of the ribs on top of the violin picture, its not matching at all.

 

341,2

157,5

103,5

198

 

If you can, I would want to hear your molds measures.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Part of the problem of the CT scan not aligning with the picture is that the CT scan may be a scan of the ribs at the back plate, or middle or at the top plate joint.

So if the plates are not exactly the same, both back and top, then things will not line-up.

Ribs may have been made, then removed from the mold, and after sometime, connected to a plate, so there is time to have movement and change.

 

If you want an exact copy, then perhaps people who made copies of the Ole Bull might be the people to help you since they copied every detail precisely.

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Hello Burns.

 

The CT scan has the endpin with it, so i guess its taken from middle.

 

And yes, the plates are diffirent at least with wear.

But the ribs are not standing in 90 degree angle either (violin inside measure is smaller from back plate side)

So I think those have been diffirent when it was new too.

 

I think if I trace the CT scan whats taken from middle and taking the measures from ''CT scans of the archings'' about 6-7mm towards the back plate from the middle point, I possibly get close to the real mold. If del Gesus mold was around 13mm.

 

But im not trusting the lenght I got. Im not sure if my printer does it shorter.

 

 

If Ole Bullers sees this, let me know.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Kimmo,

 

My inside template length (mold plus blocks, except my mold doesn't have any blocks in it at present) is 344.3 mm.  You can add a little total length (as del Gesu seems to have done on some of his instruments) by making your bottom block slightly proud of the outline of the mold.  But for the Plowden model I left everything pretty much as indicated by the Strad poster CT of the ribs.  It made a nice sounding, and very responsive instrument.

 

Doug

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The Plowden is a very asymmetric instrument but it most likely came from a symmetric mold.

It seems like Del Gesu used the same basic mold shape for most of his instruments and because of his methods, achieved an array of varied results.

This is subjective of course but there might be more value in making a geometry based mold like Guarneri might have used rather than compounding his divergences with your own.

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Hello Dreams.

 

I am sorry about my english and that I cannot understand every word of your text.

 

But if you mean, that im copying all Guarneri's asymmetric format?

 

In those last pictures, my model in paper is symmetric.

I first draw half of the violin shape, and flipped it.

There might be diffirences in my cuttings, because its only a testrun so I can figure out the measures.

 

 

Or if you mean that im reproaching Guarneri's violin.

I know these are wooden objects switch are still living and all the repairs with plate removal there were made, the original exact dimensions may change.

 

But on the other hand, if you take a look to archings he made for this violin and also the purfling.

Or is it mentioned to be like that.

I think that he could have done it better, but did he have a hurry?

 

 

 

Kimmo

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You can copy his asymmetry with a form that is based on a finished plate shape, or build it symmetrical with a half-form.

It has been posited by people much smarter than I that asymmetry in final violin form came during the neck-setting process, when the rib structure was joined by nails to the upper block. At that point, the rib structure would be adjusted to assure the centered nature of the newly attached neck to the corpus; the plates were then built off the newly asymmetrical, adjusted rib garland.

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These molds will be symmetrical.

 

I now have the violin inside measures for this del Gesu mold, swich are:

 

344,0mm

157,2mm

103,2mm

197,8mm

 

Can I go for these?

 

 

 

 

About the MB mold seen in the Muratov's site. Was it Stradivari's or Amati's?

Muratov's sites are not working anymore to confirm it, but I only remember that under the picture he talked about Nicolo Amati.

 

 

 

 

In Kevin Lee's site the pictures of Stradivari mold's shows well that the edges are thinned.

Can we be sure that these were created when shaping the linings?

If I see it correctly, the thinning is in 90 degree angle and looks pretty clean at least in upper and lower bout area.

 

 

 

 

Kimmo  

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You can copy his asymmetry with a form that is based on a finished plate shape, or build it symmetrical with a half-form.

It has been posited by people much smarter than I that asymmetry in final violin form came during the neck-setting process, when the rib structure was joined by nails to the upper block. At that point, the rib structure would be adjusted to assure the centered nature of the newly attached neck to the corpus; the plates were then built off the newly asymmetrical, adjusted rib garland.

Chris, have you ever tried making that way or wanted to?

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Del Gesu almost certainly used the same form for most of his life. However, the later instruments are less accurate to the form. For this reason I would suggest using the outline of something like the 1734 'Du Diable'. Matthew is right, I would recommend that you do not try to copying his asymmetry just yet. Let it happen naturally. Contrary to popular belief, Del Gesu's are harder to copy properly than are Strads.

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This picture here is made by using only one half of Plowden and flipped.

Like I have said, I want to do symmetrical mold.

 

Or do you mean that I shall not try to copy asymmetrical violin?

 

 

Im not starting to build other violins yet, Im just looking for molds, so everything is ready when I start a new violin.

 

 

Here is a picture of all im about to make soon. And some more when I get Pollens or Denis book.

And all molds in this picture are already 100% symmetrical.

Corners needs some fixing.

 

Still not sure if the MB is Amati or Stradivari.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Thanks for the info, I did remember it wrong then.

 

 

Robertdo,

I just like to have options, and also test all of them.

But I will be making 3 violins about the same time when I start the next ones.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Del Gesu almost certainly used the same form for most of his life. However, the later instruments are less accurate to the form. For this reason I would suggest using the outline of something like the 1734 'Du Diable'. Matthew is right, I would recommend that you do not try to copying his asymmetry just yet. Let it happen naturally. Contrary to popular belief, Del Gesu's are harder to copy properly than are Strads.

 

Is this a real Du Diable or copy?

The lower end seems pretty dull to me compared to other hes violins.

 

I quess this picture does not work for tracing the purfling line?

 

And I cant find any dimensions for the violin.

 

 

How about Cessole - Teja Ferni 1736 or Kochanski 1741?

I like the shape of King Joseph most, if to trust these pictures in internet.

 

 

Editing.

I think he might have used at least 2 molds.

Theres no way someone can be this unaccurate otherwise.

The green lines are taken from one side of the Plowden, and flipped to get all symmerical.

Sorry about the messy pictures.

 

 

Look at the gaps between green line and purfling. King Joseph and Du Diable are made from the same mold.

And Plowden and Vieuxtems are from the same mold.

 

If he didnt have 2 molds, he then has made the lower corner blocks out of mold shape, towards the C bout.

And if so, Du Diable is not a good choise for tracing the Del Gesu mold.

Vieuxtemps looks good, but the picture is too plurry.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Have you read from Roger Hargrave's library the files on moulds?

 

 

The Mould and the Rib Structure

 

See figure 9 page 13

 

 

Roger shows how the corners being gouged out could be varied to get different looks from the same mould.

Also ribs removed from moulds can if  left alone long enough change shapes.

Cameras can distort, so photos can be off some.

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About the Del Gesu.

For now I see its the best to make a mold from one fine violin only.

 

They have took at least the CT-scans from Vieuxtemps, but I did not find information if there has been a poster of it?

 

There was many new posters in opheramusicshop, I already bought some of them. I only hope they have the thicknesses and other measures on back side, so I can investigate them.

 

 

 

I have glued the walnut boards together.

Birch pins added between the joint, so I can drop the molds on the floor. I hope couple of times without braking the joint.

 

Number-1. If its grain is not the Stradivari P mold, then its nothing.

 

Number-2 does definetly look like a PG.

 

Number-3 looked like its suitable for S mold, but I really like the look of the board, but I wont be using the S mold so much, so I have to do another think.

 

Number-4 goes for Guarneri del Gesu

 

Number-5 is a Stradivari G.

 

 

And im not trying to match the grain with the original Stradivari molds, because they have nothing common.

But if you look at the boards and the grain, you would give them the same positions.

 

I am not making the molds before I have got the Pollens book.

It seems to teach the violin geometry too, so I can possibly make them right.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Linking to this forum is still not working.

 

Stradivari - Stewart Pollens

 

This is the one that has the Stradivari with a nice thick purfling on top of the book.

 

 

Does this book also have the real size images of the Stradivari forms?

And does it teach the violin geometry?

 

The violin forms of Antonio Stradivari book seems to be discontinued.

And if it would be there to get, it costs 1000$.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Linking to this forum is still not working.

 

Stradivari - Stewart Pollens

 

This is the one that has the Stradivari with a nice thick purfling on top of the book.

 

 

Does this book also have the real size images of the Stradivari forms?

And does it teach the violin geometry?

 

The violin forms of Antonio Stradivari book seems to be discontinued.

And if it would be there to get, it costs 1000$.

 

 

 

Kimmo

If you go to Google Books and type in "Stradivari - Stewart Pollens" you will get a chance to see a few pages from the book, and the Table of Contents.

It is not a large sized book.  

 

 

 

The book "The Violin Forms of Antonio Stradivari" is quite big, since it has life size cello forms, and so cost of the book is justified.

Unfortunately 'no stock' but I think you have enough molds anyway without the book.

 

Wood always moves with moisture, and so trying to get an exact copy of a mold is pointless, since such a thing does not exist, even for Stradivari.

Once Stradivari made the mold it started to change dimnesions.   Close is the best you can do.

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I have the Pollens measures up for the molds and i will use those.

 

But still I would like to see how the geometry needs to be done and from what points needs to be start.

 

I took the shapes from Muratov's pictures, but when I compare the drawings to violins made from that mold, it does not match.

Maybe Stradivari did like del Gesu, assembling the ribs leaving gaps in the C bouts near corner blocks.

 

And also, im starting my first cello in next year. (if not inside this year)

If the book has the pictures of Stradivari cello forms too, it would be a great book.

 

I found the book from other place too and the price was much cheaper. But out of stock.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Kimmo I know that you want to get it right, but quite honestly you need just to get started and make them. You seem to be getting too bogged down with details. Christophers idea of just making two is I believe the correct one. I believe the important thing to get right first, is just the making process. I remember that in the violin making school, several students spent a long time trying to make each stage absolutely perfect. The problem was that when many of us were working on our fifth or sixth instrument, they had not yet finished their first. When they finally started their second, they had already forgotten the various sequences and methods. If you wish to become a good professional then you must learn to work quickly and efficiently. Once you have understood the method then you can begin to refine your work and this will take an entire lifetime. I suggest that you don't spend your life trying to get the first one(s) perfect, they never will be.

However, if your are going for a one off violin, then I suggest that you go to a class like Joe Thrifts in NC and have the teacher iron out the design and method problems while you are working. This way you are more likely to come up with a good looking good sounding first instrument.     

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