Washing linseed oil

[Guest]

I will hardly guarantee success with  the Webber product, but I had no seeding or worms , I did heat the oil to a smoking temp before adding crushed limed white pine rosin, also a batch made  of 'amber' that worked well . I only cooked until I got a foam on top and a faint smoking, then shut off the heat and let it coast to cool in the sand bath,  I did also add kerosene/ lamp oil ,that I tested for full evaporation, and  filtered while warm,  there was a small bit of junk in the filter, maybe these were the 'seeds'??? maybe just got lucky with the four batches .??? The one bad  experience I did have that resembled 'seeding 'was two small dime sized areas that the varnish receded from , I think something got on the surface and acted as a resist , after scrubbing with pumice and water , the next cote went on fine...

Hello James

Would you please explain more about your process of varnish making? How you incorporate the lime and how much?...What temperature you cooked the varnish at and how long?...How long does it take the varnish to tack and stay open?...How long does it take to firmly dry to touch without taking on impressions?

[not telling]

Thanks. I'm getting excited about trying a recipe soon (ish) ... though it's easier than all that...and excited to see what this Weber's product can do.

OT again but ...

Has anyone tried the artisan cold-pressed walnut or poppy seed oil meant for sauteeing, on wood? Some of these specialty products are so expensive! These companies must think we are millionaires. That, or there are significant differences in the processing. I have heard...but have not tried myself...that culinary walnut oil refuses to dry, for example, but the person who had that experience was possibly (extremely probably) doing other stuff wrong.

If that is the case though (culinary oils won't polymerize), why would that be? They are probably not raw oils, that's all I can think of.

I'm also curious about what any of you materials scientists around MN could say about the chemical processing of the linseed oil. In a perfect world experts would jump in and make this research easier.

The upside to using handmade varnish is that any amateurish mistakes and fixes are actually improvements to the antiqueing.

[Johnmasters]

The problem is seeding, or "worms" with any oil other than cold-pressed raw oil which I've tried. There are countless threads about this.

Thanks,  I was not into cooking of rosin although I may look into it.  It would be interesting to know what makes these seeds.

[James M. Jones]

Hello James

Would you please explain more about your process of varnish making? How you incorporate the lime and how much?...What temperature you cooked the varnish at and how long?...How long does it take the varnish to tack and stay open?...How long does it take to firmly dry to touch without taking on impressions?

 

 

. James is a purist, but if this refined product works then it works, and I'm happy to try it. ..when washing oil I just pour out the water. Am I doing it wrong?

 

Now your making me laugh, never thought of myself that way, Mostly I am just trying to follow best practice ...as best as I can. And most the time I see new innovation as having plus sides at the expense of down sides . like a bullet proof varnish that kills acoustics and looks horrible ... But, my last ten builds were all of north American wood.. something a 'Purist' might look down on. So it all comes down to a give and take action.

 As far as the culinary oils , from MN some time ago ...food must not go rancid ,so often the manufactures will add hydrogen to the oil so that oxygen can not bind causing oxidation thus we have  hydrogenated oils ...will not go rancid while waiting for a salad, but also will not cure to a dry film , back to the trade offs for innovation. 

 

 Ernie , as far as what I am doing with varnish , mostly just following MN recipies and procedures , R's mostly( even got some mastic for the last batch) but also others input if I feel there end work is valid,  and then the inevitable  bit of cooking on the fly , My liming was of the rosin ,not the oil , I used about 3 percent of field lime by weight , and found it turned into a carmel like substance that needed to cook for some time to clarify,I have never measured temps , just live and burn as we say , the feather trick does work. So will a chunk of wood char ! 460 F give or take . No it's still not that cool clear stuff you got without liming ...but the fuse temp moved way up and it has a glassier feel in the chunk ...less clunk sound and more ping... harder . in the extremely thin layers of varnish, it doesn't scare me to much to put on a fiddle , other work perhaps like brite work on a boat , but I personally like the aged/ historical  connection, and others seem to as well , I think some of that opaque quality might actually help carry some color in thin layers as well. It seems to cure in 24 hrs or so w/ UV or sun and when cured for longer holds up well , .....At some point I would love to spend some time exploring varnish making with  more accomplished people for a reality check . I really am feeling my way through the dark , being willing to fail and get back on the pony ...but man sometimes I sure would like to have a real honest to god person in flesh and blood who knows .   

[Guest]

Thanks James. If I may ask how did you incorporate the lime into the rosin? Dry or wet?

-em

[not telling]

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/nutiva-organic-hemp-oil-24-fl-oz-liquid

So they are hydrogenating the oils...of course. That is obvious, but not to me. Meanwhile I'm going to get this stuff. Unprocessed. ..raw...first pressing...cold-pressed...and not hydrogenated...all good words. I'm glad to eat that. And it may be what it seems to be, on the cheap. I'll play with it and report.

On needing to actually be taught...oh yes.

There are people who could make that happen...an Oberlin-type experience for those interested in understanding the materials involved in varnishing. I mean...all I want is to watch Andrew Dipper or perhaps Roger Hargrave make varnishes and grounds for several weeks and get feedback on my efforts. I don't think that's too much to ask. Rotfl...but really, look how much disagreement about oil washing, for example--the most straightforward part! Help, experts!

The de Mayerne papers are rather vague regarding the important details, at times, but glad to send them to you, James, if you want a few dozen more recipes to think about. After reading and rereading, I cannot 100% say I know more now. The problem is mostly that the names of products and processes are different from what they were historically and it's difficult to find good information so i can begin to understand what the papers describe. So easy to get lost in the research...but you are welcome to have the complete manuscript.

[Guest]

nt

You might find this paper on just oils worthwhile. It has been posted on MN many times before.

http://www.tadspurgeon.com/justoil.php?page=justoil

http://www.tadspurgeon.com/pdf/Refining_Linseed_Oil.pdf

[James M. Jones]

Ernie, a paste , again from MN ...an old patent.

NT ,not sure about hemp being a drying oil, I have heard that it makes a superior lubricant as in for airplane truck  engines , because it will take a lot of heat before oxidizing ...

 I'd enjoy reading whatever papers you have to offer on the varnish subject ...

[David Burgess]

Been using Winsor Newton refined oil for years (some other brands too). No problems, and seems to be a very consistent product. One reason I use it is that I suspect that an oil from a large art supply company is probably more consistent and reliable than  I could do on my own in small batches, and it has some sort of track record.

 

Oils intended for food can be from a different variety of the plant, be contaminated with other plants in the field, or have anti-oxidants or preservatives added. Some are nearly impossible to dry. Don't believe I'll ever bother messing with those again.

[Stephen Faulk]

 

Oils intended for food can be from a different variety of the plant, be contaminated with other plants in the field, or have anti-oxidants or preservatives added. Some are nearly impossible to dry. Don't believe I'll ever bother messing with those again.

 

Food oils can be processed in the same machine that processes both drying and non drying oils and the residue of each kind can contaminate other batches.  Food grade walnut oil can have peanut oil in it or some other nut oil that does not dry. They even say that on the label so people with peanut allergies don't get a product with traces of peanut oil. 

[Stephen Faulk]

I tried the freezing method a few days ago to make oil to use as oil painting medium. I put the linseed oil in a water bottle and shook it several times during the day. Then shook it and left it in the freezer over night. I got a bottle of clear ice with cloudy yellow oil on top. I poured the oil into a jar last night and set it on the window sill. It was just yellow cloudy murk. 

 

I'll check it again today and wash it over. When I put it in the freezer it separated in 15 minutes before the water froze. 

[tango]

Stephen

 

At this time I am washing cold pressed liseed oil of Kremer.

I shook two times without change water. Oil and water separated more quickly than expected. I don´t know when I must change the water. I will before a new shake.

I will follow your process. Please, continue writing

 

Regards

Tango

[CarloBartolini]

I have washed it in the freezer many times, very easy, just wait for the water to freeze and it is done, I have always washed thrice, not sure if it is more than necessary or if I should do it 5 times. Shake it vigorously for a little while as water and oil do not mix, than freeze it, when you separate the frozen water the oil will look cloudy, when it comes back to room temperature (slow) it will clear.

[Stephen Faulk]

Carlo,

 

Huh, funny this oil as not cleared, it still looks the same as when I took it from the bottle, cloudy. Time 10 hours. I'll look tomorrow. The oil is in a jar on the window sill now. 

 

Tango,  

 

Read what the others say, I'm new to this washing oil routine with freezing so I am learning. I must have done something wrong or my oil has something wrong with it. Or maybe it needs more time to clear. We wait and see, and then try again!

[CarloBartolini]

Interesting Stephen, perhaps it needs more time to return to it's original temperature? Or it seems to my limited knowledge that perhaps the water has not completely separated and needs more standing-freezing, or it is something else. I once freeze-washed polymerized cold pressed tung oil, and it became cloudy, I placed it in the sun to see if it would clear and for many days it did not, when it finally cleared it also dried.   (I should have probably just heated it?)

 

The cloudiness I usually get is just partial freezing of the oil, easy to observe in olive oil in cold winter days it becomes cloudy, or if you place it in the fridge, but once back to normal temperature it becomes clear again.

[Guest]

If you read the Spurgeon paper it explains that the cloudiness is trapped water in the oil. To clear the oil you will SLOWLY heat the oil to the boilng point of water which is 212F. Heat the oil until there is no more popping and you will know form the sound and sight when the oil is clear. Spurgeon explains clearing the oil and something called micro emulsions and much more.

[not telling]

At $11 for 24 oz. I can waste some of the hemp oil. And I think the Weber stuff is within budget as well. Very heartening to know DB starts with refined oil even if it usually has to be win/new. Thanks for sharing that.

Technically hemp is on the short list of drying oils, so I'm really looking forward to playing with it. If it's any good it will be used on all of the things. I think the de Mayerne manuscript had a couple of recipes with hemp oil...or maybe just mentioned it can be used. It's one of those things which certainly has a historical track record. But it has to be cleaned with an OCD state of mind to be usable owing to its amazing fatty contents. I plan to call up the company on Monday to see if this is truly a raw product. I appreciate tbe oils in the refrigerated section, but that could be marketing. I have seen certain stores throw a shelf-stable probiotic in the fridge space because of the price point, or I guess to make it stand out...for example. One must watch for that sort of mindful tomfoolery, especially in unregulated "natural products"...since definitions seem to get hazy.

TY emviolins for the Spurgeon tutorials. He seems very good, covers troubleshooting nicely, etc. Jarrow is a really good-priced supplement brand and I was relieved to see that product listed. Did anyone follow his recommendations on purchasing that brand of linseed oil? Interestingly, the badly processed Omega Nutritionals, and Jarrow Formulas, are the same brand. I hope the one labelled Jarrow is still good.

His is certainly the best how-to on salt/sand that I've seen. Instead of the salt/sand method everyone uses...I had been simply pouring off the water a dozen times. Spurgeon mentions this way. Maybe this will "clean" the oil but it won't alter the fat molecules to the same degree as the salt? Hmm. I won't name the maker who showed us this method but he is kind of a big deal. Plus I think Roger Hargrave does it this way, and isn't that reason enough? In any case, the parsimonious method is the one appealing most to my laziness. I liked how he goes into selecting a sand, geez. The rabbit hole goes down infinitely with the varnish knowledge, too.

S.F: it might help to have the oil & water separated before putting in the freezer? Easy fix though, as emviolins said.

J.J.: I was thinking I should make a zip file of the Fels book anyway, so I will have it forever unless Google folds or I die, but it will be awhile before I get to that heinous task. Maybe a couple months. Maybe not that long. I'll definitely send it though.

[tango]

Carlo,

 

Huh, funny this oil as not cleared, it still looks the same as when I took it from the bottle, cloudy. Time 10 hours. I'll look tomorrow. The oil is in a jar on the window sill now. 

 

Tango,  

 

Read what the others say, I'm new to this washing oil routine with freezing so I am learning. I must have done something wrong or my oil has something wrong with it. Or maybe it needs more time to clear. We wait and see, and then try again!

Stephen

 

This is third time I shook. I don´t know if it is cloudy  because it is into a plastic bottle semi-trasparent.

I will shake several times waiting 24 hours between. 

I syphon the water before shake.

Good luck

Tango

[Stephen Faulk]

At the risk of casting Aspergeons, I must say I have trouble with this method, but after freezing twice and slowly cooking I did manage to clear the oil somewhat. I'll check it today. 

[not telling]

I have never seen any writings on how many washings are necessary before a raw oil may begin to be kept outside of the fridge. I have been keeping my projects cold because it would really ruin my month to have a batch go rancid. Is there an instant fix for this (such as heating once) ? I plan to remove any remaining mucilage after washing the dozen times with a low heating, and it makes sense (to me) that pulling out fatty content reduces the risk for rancidity. When I did this before I never did heat it and to my knowledge the oil stayed fresh. But it was used fast too.

Someone must be able to answer this...it sounds like others are similarly unfamiliar with basic particulars of this process, but some have been doing this awhile.

I begin to believe snow washing may have been a very historical method because of this issue. Does that make sense? Or is rancidity not a real problem during a wash?

[Peter K-G]

Reading what you guys are doing and all the troubles   It makes me wonder what the heck is wrong with the oil you are using? The cold pressed linseed oil I use doesn't even need washing to make great varnish, and for it to go rancid !? Never heard that would ever happen . Isn't there any flax plant farmers and linseed oil makers in northern US? Just a thought, you need to start with the right quality of linseed oil.

[Michael_Molnar]

Reading what you guys are doing and all the troubles   It makes me wonder what the heck is wrong with the oil you are using? The cold pressed linseed oil I use doesn't even need washing to make great varnish, and for it to go rancid !? Never heard that would ever happen . Isn't there any flax plant farmers and linseed oil makers in northern US? Just a thought, you need to start with the right quality of linseed oil.

Peter,

 

Please be more specific. Who is you magical source? 

[MikeC]

LO doesn't go rancid does it?  

[not telling]

My understanding, limited though it is by a horrifically inadequate education in organic chem, is that any raw LO, and indeed any high-quality raw version, would degrade very fast if it's sitting at room temperature. This is one reason for washing it. High linoleic acid content must be altered to make it usable. Why? I read it (lol-anyone else able to actually explain this? I can't). Luckily plain spring water will do the job. So will the electrical reaction of melting snow. Peter, because of your climate I wish you would do the snow method and see what happens--if your amazing oil gets even better. Where I am, I can't try that myself. But...oh yeah...your raw oil is magic and will never go rancid. Maybe you should taste it and see.

Light and heat are not good for raw LO. Heat makes it no longer raw, right?

I think there is a point where it's stable enough to put in sunlight or just put on a shelf but I don't know when that would be...someone knows. Or maybe I'm wrong? I hope. Because otherwise you're all using rotten oil! Looks like a low heating would fix this. But I know I don't know how many washings would do the same. I hope to have a hand-refined never-heated oil that can sit on a shelf. I want to do this because...hmm...why not?

I ended up getting the Flora brand of flax oil. It's refrigerated in a dark glass container. Marketing? Maybe. Can anyone speak to results with this one?

Btw...I am on a third washing of the hemp oil (manitoba harvest) and I really like it. I'm already seeing a beautiful result. I decided to try magnesium sulfate in the water. The results are interesting. Very. I got that idea from "ask a scientist", a government initiative In which children put a science question online and an expert answers. No shame! Someone should write a trade secrets on this. You heard it here.

[Peter K-G]

Peter,

 

Please be more specific. Who is you magical source? 

 

Just trying to help, I get good results from using standard Finnish cold pressed linseed oil available in any paint store here. Maybe there is linseed oil from northern US flax farmers? Just an idea.

 

People seams to have a lot of trouble with this here, so I thought sharing my experiences might help. I have also done some test to be certain. The standard Finnish cold pressed was without a doubt the best. I also tested Winsor Newton refined linseed oil from an art store, which would be my second choice

 

 

And Michael, everything I share on this forum and on my site is thoroughly tested and can be repeated over again. that's not magical source. It's called basic science