Questions on colophony "Starting Varnish"


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Dear gentlemen

 

Since then, what I'm active on maestronet pegbox and learning to cook varnish, I spent a lot of money for materials to varnish, thermometer, pots, ATC ....

 

Top of everything I've bought a PH meter for around 100 EU. So to measure the Ph varnish. I keep my head was about how you can have my ph varnish

 

Could I have a nice maple top

 

 

So here is the result of the photo

 

 

My wife will kill me when they find out for what I spend my money.

 

 

pine resin, and Venice turpentine I parboiled about a small spoon of lime for about 90 gr resin. I did not exactly. I've added a little alum.

post-29527-0-13943100-1384979924_thumb.jpg

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Dear gentlemen

 

Since then, what I'm active on maestronet pegbox and learning to cook varnish, I spent a lot of money for materials to varnish, thermometer, pots, ATC ....

 

Top of everything I've bought a PH meter for around 100 EU. So to measure the Ph varnish. I keep my head was about how you can have my ph varnish

 

Could I have a nice maple top

 

 

So here is the result of the photo

 

 

My wife will kill me when they find out for what I spend my money...

Learning to keep secrets is all part of a happy marriage and successful hobby. ;)

Joe

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Where did you buy the ph meter?

Hi

 

I bought the CZ on line web shop
 
 
handheld pH meters are commercially available, check the web
 
mine is
 
pH meter Greisinger GPH 014 GL
 
could possibly be simpler
 
 
Do not buy it not worth it.
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Dear gentlemen
 
Since then, what I'm active on maestronet pegbox and learning to cook varnish, I spent a lot of money for materials to varnish, thermometer, pots, ATC ....
 
Top of everything I've bought a PH meter for around 100 EU. So to measure the Ph varnish. I keep my head was about how you can have my ph varnish
 
Could I have a nice maple top
 
 
So here is the result of the photo
 
 
My wife will kill me when they find out for what I spend my money.
 
 
pine resin, and Venice turpentine I parboiled about a small spoon of lime for about 90 gr resin. I did not exactly. I've added a little alum.

 

Hi violinoalto- can you write some more on your varnish, more about procedure, now nicely does it brush out, drying time, etc. You don't mentiion using linseed oil. I'm pretty sure there is someone who makes a similar varnish on MN and can help you. fred

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OK Fred

 

All of recommendations by the pegbox 
I made Venice turpentine boiled with lime .. larch resin 20 g 
Kremmer of dark amber resin boiled with lime - pine rosin 20 grams 
20 g sandarak :-) 
-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- 
60 g 
 
30 g mastic
 
 
Swedish cold-pressed linseed oil, sun-dried 90 g 
 
Posted by alum 
 
put into the pot rusty screw length 100 mm, diameter 10 mm, 10 minutes 
 
 
3 parts oil, rosin and sandarac two parts, one part mastic
 
 
I cooked at 250 ° C (oil cooking - bubbled), possibly two hours here, I managed to pull the thread, I diluted with turpentine 
 
test: the glass under UV 18 hours dry, it is sanded, polished, transparent, golden brown tinge of red 
 
I just started to paint violins, early photo 
 
I worked before with this oldwood 1700 --- thick varnish coated finger was good about a lot of oil 
 
My finger is not so varnish, thick very soon hardens and does not smear. It seems to me therefore as dry. When more dilute with turpentine, paint brush it lightly, well spills is very shiny, but I have to work fast. On Quick-action solidifies and brush sticking. 
 
I think that also thinned with linseed oil or spikol to manageable 
 
 
Any good advice
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OK Fred

 

All of recommendations by the pegbox 
I made Venice turpentine boiled with lime .. larch resin 20 g 
Kremmer of dark amber resin boiled with lime - pine rosin 20 grams 
20 g sandarak :-) 
-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- 
60 g 
 
30 g mastic
 
 
Swedish cold-pressed linseed oil, sun-dried 90 g 
 
Posted by alum 
 
put into the pot rusty screw length 100 mm, diameter 10 mm, 10 minutes 
 
 
3 parts oil, rosin and sandarac two parts, one part mastic
 
 
I cooked at 250 ° C (oil cooking - bubbled), possibly two hours here, I managed to pull the thread, I diluted with turpentine 
 
test: the glass under UV 18 hours dry, it is sanded, polished, transparent, golden brown tinge of red 
 
I just started to paint violins, early photo 
 
I worked before with this oldwood 1700 --- thick varnish coated finger was good about a lot of oil 
 
My finger is not so varnish, thick very soon hardens and does not smear. It seems to me therefore as dry. When more dilute with turpentine, paint brush it lightly, well spills is very shiny, but I have to work fast. On Quick-action solidifies and brush sticking. 
 
I think that also thinned with linseed oil or spikol to manageable 
 
 
Any good advice

 

 

 

Lots of stuff in your varnish. I'm not familiar with such a varnish, and not able to spread it with so much oil is odd. Hopefully someone can help. fred

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OK good advice
 
 
We at least know how you can have our Ph varnish

 

Sorry, but pH meters do not work with non-aqueous liquids, as has been mentioned several times. Sometimes you can extract the ions of interest into water (such as with paper or soil) but I'm sure that won't work with varnish.

 

I agree with Fred's implication about complexity. It looks like you added a little of everything you read about instead of using a simple, workable recipe.

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hm I do not know if it's ironic remark

 

I see it

 

I learned that there is a good group of people

Help each other

They give their ideas and thoughts. We learn from one another.

When you connect with more ideas is like a little brain storming.

Then we can all have good results and yet are always different.

 

Without colleagues'm not assembled my varnish and therefore my idea belongs to others.

 

 

I'll never be selfish

 

Very well known as some violinmakers do not want to say how what they do. I recognize their right. I do not like it. I also learned from others.
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Hi Roland, this is from a reference- "  When lime is employed to neutralize rosin, the resulting product is know as "lime hardened rosin", and the method is generally known as "liming". This is usually effected by first melting the rosin, then heating to 450F (232C) and slowly sifting into it finely powdered lime while constantly stirring; then raising the temperature to 525oF and holding it at this temperature until the reaction is completed. The temperature of the batch is then permitted to drop to approximately 350oF and it is thinned with mineral spirits. This varnish is know as "Gloss Oil"

 

You are going to use it in an oil varnish so you would skip adding a thinner.

You can also get a neutralized rosin by using  an oil paint pigment that contains iron such as Sienna or Umber, or any other with iron. The advantage to this method is you get color which you won't get with lime. When I make a copal varnish because copal resin is pretty much Ph neutral I have to add some rosin to react with the added umber to color the varnish.  Pigments such as Umber or Sienna also are driers to speed up film formation which lime does not. fred

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Would neutralized limed rosin be soluble in turpentine?  

Hi Mike- Yes it is soluble, but  i would guess that if you keep adding lime you would eventually have a rosin soap soluble only in water.  I also think using lime could possibly cause the varnish to become sticky in very humid conditiions.  The one advantage possibly could be that it will give you a nice red color with brazil or permanbuco extractions.  fred

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That is interesting information Fred. Can I ask what form of iron you use and amounts or percentages? Also how do they age as far as color goes?

 

I have wondered myself how much "burnt umber" oil paint is added.  How much of the resulting brown color comes from cooking with the rosin and how much color is just from the fact you added brown oil paint to a varnish mix...?  Burnt Umber is opaque so adding it afterwards would seem to diminish the transparency of the final varnish, so I assume cooking the umber in the varnish to get (additional?) brown color makes a more transparent brown?

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I want to help here (not that I think anyone feel they need any help everyone seems to know everything already)

 

As I'm going to cook another batch soon, it's interesting to see what others are thinking here. To me the question comes in mind; Are you out of your minds? I might be completely wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about, but what is the problem with Colophony & linseed varnish? My children could do this. It's more dangorous and difficult to cook toffee.

 

Last summer I did a lot of careful studying MN varnish topics and built up a mountain of problems for myself in my mind.The only thing I learned from the tons of information on varnsih cooking,was the reason for cooking colophony and linseed oil.  Mutual solubility (Joe Robson's post)

 

My recipe

For color;choose colophony carefully (ex.Scandinavian pine rosin) and lime the cold pressed linseed oil (ex. Scandinavian quality), I was really happy with my first batch that I cooked. You have seen the pictures I was stunned with the results!

 

- Melt the colophony and cook it at low temperature (120 - 150 C) 15 -30 min.

- Heat linseed oil to the same temperature and lime it (it will foam for a while and settle)

- Blend the heated linseed oil into the warm colophony - cook at same temperature 15 - 30 min.

(- slowly add some warm turpentine (pine) if the linseed oil is thick)

- Filter warm and put it in a bottle

- Wait for one month before applying on a violin (by hand)

- Glaze a couple of layers with madder/sienna/umber (small amounts) if you like (not necessary to glaze at all, if grounding is good)

 

Remeber, any pigments you put into the varnish makes it more opaque.

 

This is the colphony and how the varnish looks like, colophony is reddish/orange, liming linseed adds golden brown color.

 

post-37356-0-36027300-1385195698_thumb.jpg post-37356-0-64784200-1385195725_thumb.jpg

 

If you take the mystification and madness out of this varnish making you can also have beginners luck like me.

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Peter I am glad that you had good results on your first attempt. I know what you mean by getting confused by reading all of the posts about varnish making but it helps me when people keep good notes about what they did and pass those along.

I just have to remember that different species of tree resins can make a very big difference in the final varnish characteristics. So can the cooking temperature, source of oil, liming, etc.

But your experience as well as others here gives me some good ideas of things to try with my varnish making.

I am using spruce resin from the Maine coast and linseed oil. The spruce resin cooks to a darker and redder color than some of the commercial rosin chunks that I have tried. My next attempt with cooking the spruce might be to take it to a higher temperature to get it darker although it tends to cook away and I end up with less. The umber pigment looks like another way to get it darker. I don't mind a little bit of opacity, it gives the varnish some presence.

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