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GoldenPlate

Stolen Poggi

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Unlawfully exported.

 

To call a 1967 Ansaldo Poggi a part of Italy's cultural patrimony on a par with the Benin bronzes or the Elgin Marbles is buffoonery of the highest order.

Aside from the fact that many Italian violins (old and new) are a bit crap and would be best forgotten about, I wonder how this impacts on modern makers - do they have to get special permission to export their work, or does an Italian violin only become part of the nation's great "cultural properties" after a set period of time? 

And what about all the Italian violins that were sneaked out of the country before this inane law was passed - shouldn't they be repatriated?

is there some sort of database of Italian VMs who are classed as "artists" or do all automatically qualify? Maybe it would be possible to opt out :wacko:

It doesn't seem to sit well with EU legislation concerning freedom of movement and freedom of trade either. If I buy a Poggi in Italy, I should be able to travel to any other EU member state without paying any import duty and sell it if I so wish. That's what the EU is for ...

Can one even argue this sensibly in the context of a Stradivari? Maybe at some point in the future, prospective owners of Italian violins will have to be DNA tested to establish that they too are Italian.

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Unlawfully exported.

 

To call a 1967 Ansaldo Poggi a part of Italy's cultural patrimony on a par with the Benin bronzes or the Elgin Marbles is buffoonery of the highest order.

Aside from the fact that many Italian violins (old and new) are a bit crap and would be best forgotten about, I wonder how this impacts on modern makers - do they have to get special permission to export their work, or does an Italian violin only become part of the nation's great "cultural properties" after a set period of time? 

And what about all the Italian violins that were sneaked out of the country before this inane law was passed - shouldn't they be repatriated?

is there some sort of database of Italian VMs who are classed as "artists" or do all automatically qualify? Maybe it would be possible to opt out :wacko:

It doesn't seem to sit well with EU legislation concerning freedom of movement and freedom of trade either. If I buy a Poggi in Italy, I should be able to travel to any other EU member state without paying any import duty and sell it if I so wish. That's what the EU is for ...

Can one even argue this sensibly in the context of a Stradivari? Maybe at some point in the future, prospective owners of Italian violins will have to be DNA tested to establish that they too are Italian.

This would give one some pause before buying from Italian dealers as well as current Italian makers over the internet and needs some further explanation, IMHO.

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http://www.theflorentine.net/articles/article-view.asp?issuetocId=1227

 

I suspect it becomes culturally significant when the price is high enough to collect a nice extort fee. . . ahh I mean export fee, or certificate of free circulation fee. Whatever.   :)

Law 1089 from 1939?  OMG, a lasting legacy of Mussolini, how bloody priceless is that? :P:lol:

 

"The most recent re-working of the law was in 1998, but the basic rules from 1939 still apply."

 

One wonders how many more of the charming fellow's laws are still on the books in Bella Italia?

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English regulations:

 

Export and import licences for objects of cultural interest - including antiques and works of art

The Arts Council has responsibility for issuing export licences for objects of cultural interest which includes antiques and works of art.

You will need an export licence to export certain objects of cultural interest that are more than 50 years old and above certain financial thresholds. For example, you’ll need to apply for a licence if you want to export a book that’s more than 100 years old and worth more than £65,000 to another European Union country. For further information, read about export licensing for antiques and works of art on the Arts Council website.

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Law 1089 from 1939?  OMG, a lasting legacy of Mussolini, how bloody priceless is that? :P:lol:

 

"The most recent re-working of the law was in 1998, but the basic rules from 1939 still apply."

 

One wonders how many more of the charming fellow's laws are still on the books in Bella Italia?

 

That is hardly an argument. Our Civil Code (Allgemeines bürgerliches Gesetzbuch) dates from 1st. June 1811. Although it has been amended numerous times, it is still in force and of a remarkable poetic beauty that defeats Google translation. Here is paragraph 367, which always crops up when violins have been embezzeled, as a foretaste:

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English regulations:

 

Export and import licences for objects of cultural interest - including antiques and works of art

The Arts Council has responsibility for issuing export licences for objects of cultural interest which includes antiques and works of art.

You will need an export licence to export certain objects of cultural interest that are more than 50 years old and above certain financial thresholds. For example, you’ll need to apply for a licence if you want to export a book that’s more than 100 years old and worth more than £65,000 to another European Union country. For further information, read about export licensing for antiques and works of art on the Arts Council website.

 

OK, I had no idea.

Any musical instrument with a value over £43K and over 50 years old needs an export license to travel outside the EU, temporarily or permanently. This would appear to have nothing to do with where the instrument was made originally.

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Law 1089 from 1939?  OMG, a lasting legacy of Mussolini, how bloody priceless is that? :P:lol:

 

"The most recent re-working of the law was in 1998, but the basic rules from 1939 still apply."

 

One wonders how many more of the charming fellow's laws are still on the books in Bella Italia?

 

I believe you don't know many italians - a sure way to change your mind from the place I believe is dwelling at the moment....:) :) :)

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Unlawfully exported.

 

To call a 1967 Ansaldo Poggi a part of Italy's cultural patrimony on a par with the Benin bronzes or the Elgin Marbles is buffoonery of the highest order.

Aside from the fact that many Italian violins (old and new) are a bit crap and would be best forgotten about,

 

 

Are you maybe comparing with Scottish violins ? Because, you know, I'm watching "Antiques Roadshow".... :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

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That is hardly an argument. Our Civil Code (Allgemeines bürgerliches Gesetzbuch) dates from 1st. June 1811. Although it has been amended numerous times, it is still in force and of a remarkable poetic beauty that defeats Google translation. Here is paragraph 367, which always crops up when violins have been embezzeled, as a foretaste:

 

Ah, Viennese torts, how very yummy :lol:   My comment was much more humorous surprise than argument.  The persistence of some legislation despite its origins is not a source of mirth restricted to Italy.

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Dear all,

I'm the owner of the web site www.poggiansaldo.com and, obviously, of the violin.

 

Thanks all of you for your interest , but  let me only specify few things.

 

First of all, according to Italian law, the Ansaldo Poggi's violin 1967-68 is classified as a "Work of Art" by the Italian Ministry of Cultural Heritage. It was stolen and unlawfully exported.

 

Since I had to follow this problem , I understand that illegal exportation of works of art is a very big problem , much more than I could imagine, and that is regulated not only by law of individual nation, but above all is regulated by European laws and by Interpol: this is certainly true in my case and as a matter of fact this violin is recorded in INTERPOL Stolen Works of Art database.

 

It is also important to say that  co-ordinating private and in particular commercial law between States and groups of States and formulating uniform law instruments is not so simple and it is is an "law area" that is still maturing.

 

So I think we can say it is a complicated area that deserves our respect and should be extended in order to slow down the illegal export of all works of art ( very important or less important works of art  ....).
 
I must add that -if I'm not mistaken- Certificate of Free Circulation is not a fee (ok ...  except for revenue stamps of 11 euro ...) , but a way to control the exportation of works of art and yes, if you have it you will be able to travel to any other EU member state without paying any import duty.
 
I Thank you again for your attention and I take this opportunity to tell you about other stolen musical instruments : that is the link http://www.poggiansaldo.com/database.html

 

 
best regards
 
T.R.

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Dear T.R.,

 

It would be interesting to learn, quite how you define “Stolen”, in respect to your Poggi (and others). Were these instruments forcifully removed from your possesion, or did you mandate a dealer/shop (eg. Lebet) to sell them for you on your behalf, and has he/they sold them, and neglected to pay you the proceeds?

 

If the latter, then they wouldn’t be “Stolen” here, due to the contract law I cited above (§367 ABGB http://www.jusline.at/367_ABGB.html), rather you would have a claim against the dealer who owes you the proceeds of the sale. I realize that American law is different (and in my view unworkable and illogical) but mercifully, American law doesn’t have any juristriction in the EU.

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Dear "jacobsaunders" , thank you for your interest because it is an opportunity to clarify aspects that may not be clear. 

 

First af all, I must apologize , but as you can read, my English is not good , so I can probably make mistakes in writing.

 

I must also point out that I can not add details, but definitely not the case with Mr. Lebet , and certainly the person who have stolen my violin had not mandate to sell it.

I don't know Mr Lebet ... why did you talk about him ? If you know anything about this story you have to tell everything to the police...

 

For me, however, it is important to clarify that the crime of "theft" (or "embezzlement", I do not know how to translate ... ) is against those who physically removed me the violin , while the crime of illegal export is instead accomplished by anyone sell works of Italian art without Italian Ministry permission and export it illegally outside the Italian territory. 

 

I also recall that a professionist who sells violins can not ignore law and then if he buys instruments that are exported from Italy he has to verify the presence of the above documents to ensure their customers that everything is perfect.

 

Let me clarify another important point: it doesn't matter if the violin is stolen or not , because if it was exported without  the "Certificate of Free Circulation", so Interpol will look for it (and Interpol is looking....) and if Interpol finds the violin, he will report it to the Italian Ministry , and even if American law doesn’t have any juristriction in the EU (and and also the opposite), they cooperate , that meaning that if the violin would be in the USA there would be good possibility to have it back. 

 

best regards

T.R.

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Thank-you,

 

The reason I asked about Mr. Lebet, was that you list three instruments by him on the link (http://www.poggiansaldo.com/database.html) you provided. It also struck me as slightly curious, that you seem to know the identity of the would-be thief, but treat this information as confidential. Has there been a procedure against this individual or not, and if not, why not? It would seem diffucult to report an alleged misdemeanor he/she might attempt, to the Italian police, without knowing his/her identity.

 

It was not the subject of my enquiry, but I must admit that I wasn’t aware that it was even possible to “Export” something from Italy to Austria, since I had understood that we all live in a “Common Market”.

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Dear Mr jacobsaunders

 

yes, there is a procedure againts people involved, but I chose not to make public in respect of the investigations of the police that is still working.

Everyting I wrote is konwn by police and by Interpol, If not they couldn't help me.....

 

About the procedure describe above, my opinion is that we could intend it not strictly as an "export" , but as a permission that you have to comunicate in order to prevent numerous thefts of works of art and archaeological finds that have occurred over the past decades. 

 

 

About Mr Lebet ... I didn't know him and mine is a list of stolen instruments made also ​​by this luthier (not only)  and I do not know the details of thefts.

 

 

best regards

T.R.

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It was not the subject of my enquiry, but I must admit that I wasn’t aware that it was even possible to “Export” something from Italy to Austria, since I had understood that we all live in a “Common Market”.

 

I noticed this issue to begin with, and it is making me a bit restive.  While the EU is still evolving and is yet short of true sovereignty, the federal trappings already in place seem to imply that supranationality should overrule local interests in matters like this.  Shouldn't the "cultural patrimony" be considered equally shared by all the member states, and such national statutes become a dead letter as regards other member states (in which case, BTW, the question of the "Elgin Marbles" , etc., becomes moot)?  Sounds to me like something to keep your politicians and lawyers busy for a while.

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Interesting current case: a Picasso seized from a yacht in French waters after the owner apparently tried to illegally export it from Spain.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11782480/Picasso-worth-25m-seized-from-British-registered-yacht-off-Corsica.html

 

Quoting:

The ship’s captain could only produce two documents regarding the work of art, the statement said – one of which was a May 2015 Spanish court ruling confirming that the painting was “a national treasure (which) could under no circumstances be taken out of Spain”.

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Interesting current case: a Picasso seized from a yacht in French waters after the owner apparently tried to illegally export it from Spain.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11782480/Picasso-worth-25m-seized-from-British-registered-yacht-off-Corsica.html

 

Quoting:

The ship’s captain could only produce two documents regarding the work of art, the statement said – one of which was a May 2015 Spanish court ruling confirming that the painting was “a national treasure (which) could under no circumstances be taken out of Spain”.

As far as I understand, an artifact has to be at least 50 years old before a 'nulla osta' (no obstacle or impediment) definitive export authorization is required for an item to freely leave Italy; a document emitted by the Ministry of Cultural Heritage. This law was originally designed to avoid the systematic exportation of antiquities from Italy and would give the Italian Government a first option to retain within Italy any object considered to be of significant cultural importance.

 

The photographs were donated to the claimant. Years earlier it was photographed in the workshop.

 

Bruce

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Odd. He purchased the painting in London. The mere act of transporting it to Spain makes it qualify as a Spanish national treasure?

 

Suppose Picasso had painted it in London. Would it still qualify as a national treasure because Picasso was a Spanish National?

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Though I am not a lawyer nor a diplomat it occurs to me that the Picasso case might hinge on whether Picasso was (still) a Spanish citizen, even though he resided in France.  If Picasso was a Spanish citizen then the Spanish government might define something he made to be a Spanish work of art.

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