Old Wood Varnish Systems

[jowl]

Can someone describe their experience of the Old Wood varnish systems? They have six different systems on their website, but it is not clear why. How does one chose between them and how do they differ in performance? Is there one that would be more advantageous for someone on their first few instruments?

http://www.oldwood1700.com/sistemas_aplicacion.aspx

 

[Guest]

I can't answer your question since I've only just tried their Italian Golden Ground. It primes and colors the white wood.

I just posted some photos of the result on the Magister thread...it looks like you've already have been to their website.

It's my first time using any of their products.

[Marc Genevrier]

I assume, you're speaking of their ground system.

Initially, they only had one : (Italien Golden Ground +) Imprimatura + Doratura

Later came their Refractive Ground.

Imprimatura and Doratura are quite thick and not very easy to apply at the beginning. Recently, Old Wood is shipping them with a small bottle of linseed oil or similar to dilute them and make the application easier. You may also warm them before application, it helps too.

Refractive Ground is very fluid, hence much easier to apply. I suspect it is some sort of rosin oil.

 

So now, you have three products which act as a ground/sealer before the first varnish coat. Although each one has special properties and behaves somewhat differently, one may wonder whether you really need three products. Hence, I guess it's up to you to choose which one you would like to use, it's a matter of taste and convenience. But of course, you can only choose when you have some experience with all of them.

 

My personal choise as for now : 1 coat of each - 1 extremely thin coat only, I always vigorously wipe the violin with a rag after application to remove the excess product.

Actually, I have not tested whether Refractive Ground makes much of a difference, but it's cheap and easy to apply.

I like the effect of Doratura, it gives some depth to the color and a nice chatoyancy effect.

Maybe I could save on Imprimatura and apply two coats of Refractive Ground, but I still have a bottle of it and I use only these products very sparingly, so one bottle will last very long. Also, Imprimatura and Doratura contain some minerals, which Refractive Ground doesn't, so I'm somewhat reluctant to switch to Refractive Ground only, because of sound issues (I'm assuming here, following some comments here, e.g. by Roger Hargrave, that minerals are good for projection).

 

Old Wood has a nice system, but it looks quite complex and lacks the simplicity many people are aiming for. This may actually be the reason why they are now promoting simpler alternatives with only one or two out of the three products.

[Lusitano]

I'm put off by the thickness of the final varnish and I feel the entire system is in fact overkill as a good tanning session would produce similar results to their doratura mixes and balsam/sealers without the added thickness. The only thing I will say about them is, I love the refractive groud but was hoping for more chatoyance. Joe Robson's systems seem to be a lot simpler and much more versatile than the entire OW system.

 

My two cents, pick and choose the elements you want to work with and do not think the entire system is necessary to achieve the overall look you want. Personally speaking, I'm willing to use their refractive ground system with a good tanning session first to color the wood and finish it off with my own varnish/ Joe Robson's products once I get around to ordering them.

[Guest]

My two cents, pick and choose the elements you want to work with and do not think the entire system is necessary to achieve the overall look you want. Personally speaking, I'm willing to use their refractive ground system with a good tanning session first to color the wood and finish it off with my own varnish/ Joe Robson's products once I get around to ordering them.

When you refer to the use of OW's refractive ground system...which products are you referring too? Also depending were you live a good tanning session will not achieve the same color as Old Wood's Italian Golden Ground. As I stated I belive there is some kind of dye or colorant used in part B of the primer. Regular sunshine alone is not enough to achieve the same color. Even Joe uses tinctures to darken.

Have you actually used Joe's ground system?...It is not as easy as one might think. After using Joe's system for a number of years and recently the Old Wood primer. I would pick the Italian Golden Ground as my personal choice since it colors the wood the fastest (one day) and gives an acceptable result

Joe's ground system requires more time and work. The whole OW system definitely is not something that appeals to me. Getting the white wood to a specific color is the most important step as far as I'm concerned.

If you read Roger's thread it was the initial coloring of the wood that he could not fully disclose and that to me was the critical step.

After that sure everything is on the table.

[FredN]

I just want to comment about Marc mentioning that he thinks it "some kind of rosin oil"-

Two oils are commercially extracted from dark rosin, one is called Kidney oil that distills off at around 480oF and Bloom oil which is a highly fluorescent yellow and distills at around 570oF.It is possible Marc is correct that it is rosin oil and it is the Bloom oil fraction used to develop the golden yellow.

I mentioned in a previous post that if you make your own rosin/oil varnish you can get the same results by adding some tube pigment umber when you make your varnish. I don't know why, but applying 3-4 coats of this varnish to wood will give you a bright yellow undercoat and a surface color of dark reddish brown. It is most likely the manganese present in umber pigment, for if you use the coloring pigment Sienna which has no manganese you will only get a brown colored varnish, but still a very good violin color. fred

[Lusitano]

When you refer to the use of OW's refractive ground system...which products are you referring too? Also depending were you live a good tanning session will not achieve the same color as Old Wood's Italian Golden Ground. As I stated I belive there is some kind of dye or colorant used in part B of the primer. Regular sunshine alone is not enough to achieve the same color. Even Joe uses tinctures to darken.

Have you actually used Joe's ground system?...It is not as easy as one might think. After using Joe's system for a number of years and recently the Old Wood primer. I would pick the Italian Golden Ground as my personal choice since it colors the wood the fastest (one day) and gives an acceptable result

Joe's ground system requires more time and work. The whole OW system definitely is not something that appeals to me. Getting the white wood to a specific color is the most important step as far as I'm concerned.

If you read Roger's thread it was the initial coloring of the wood that he could not fully disclose and that to me was the critical step.

After that sure everything is on the table.

 

Thank you so much for referencing this, I thought joe's systems were simpler from reading some some poster's thoughts and experiences with it on here in comparison with the guidelines/video with my own experience (although limited), I still want to give Joe's stuff a shot though. I personally liked the base look of tanned wood more than the results I had with colored grounds on the test strips I tested this on but then again I tanned with UV for more than a day and I like lighter colored wood than most people. I also might have gone a bit heavy with the OW doratura minerale , Ill redo the experiment and post picture as it might help illustrate better?

 

I bought OW refractive ground and the golden Italian ground kit. I found the GIG colored up too yellow and was a bit alarmed as it looked a bit artificial. I might have gone a bit heavy on it though?

 

I just realized I spoke about doratura instead of the golden Italian ground system!

[Guest]

I would like to see the results posted here on MN from you...Does'nt the Old Wood mineral ground as they call it also contain some kind of dye? If you like lighter colored wood. I wood give Joe's products a try. They leave clarity and sparkle in the wood that is really fantastic.

[Jay Higgs]

 

So here is my experience with the Old Wood ground and varnish system.  Note I am essentially an autodidact beginner luthier, having made my current violin after a 25 year gap from making several in the remote past.  As you will see, I made several mistakes, from which I hope to learn.  I detailed my experience as these “notes to self’ to improve my next effort, so take them for what they are worth; I make no claim that any of my notes will give a good result for anyone else.  Maybe some of the pros can add suggestions about what I did right and wrong.   Someday I would like to attend Joe Robson’s workshop, but for now I am on my own.  I do know Joe’s first rule of varnishing; “First do no harm.”  I had to learn that lesson a few times as below.  I should have run through the entire process on a trial piece of wood, but I didn’t have the patience to go through 4 weeks of trial finishing, and I am not sure that would have averted my newbie mistakes, especially given the convoluted surfaces of the actual instrument. 

I tanned the violin in the UV box for two weeks.   Mistake one:  I thought I had checked it over pretty thoroughly, but I should have been even more diligent.  The slightest irregularity in the surface or errant spot of glue will become glaringly apparent as the process goes on.  

I applied 2% technical gelatin as instructed.  This was pretty easy.  

I used the foundation color Italian Golden Ground A/B.  The A phase went on pretty easily, and I made sure not to over-rub it with the sponge to preserve the gelatin layer.  After 8 hr of UV  I did the same with the B layer, which only needs to air dry.  After air drying, I noted on the back of my violin a lot of spots, like freckles.   Not sure what to do, I used a wet cloth to rub it out and the B layer freckles came off.  I was concerned that I might have rubbed out the technical gelatin, but in retrospect that does not seem to be much of an issue.  Note to self:  Don’t put too much of layer B on, but if you do, you can gently rub off the freckles.  

 

 

I then applied the Old Wood refractive ground.  I hand rubbed it with vinyl gloves, and this went pretty easily.  Mistake three:  in the process of rubbing down the coat, you have to dab your glove on a cloth periodically.  I didn’t ensure that my first cloth was totally free of dust and lint.  Hence, I transferred some extra tiny debris on my finish.  Before putting on a second coat of refractive ground, I endeavored to pick out the defects.  Mistake four:  Most of this went OK, but I obsessed over a little black dot on the top and worked at it too much, leaving a small divot in a summer growth line.  Mistake five:  I decided to fill the divot in with extra refractive ground, and put painter’s tape around it to only expose the divot.  When I pulled the tape up, small pieces of the prior ground layers came up, leaving the bare wood.  Sadly, I had taken a small problem and created a larger one.  Fortunately, I was able to repair that with more A/B ground, and the tiny black dot is still there (just in front of bridge on left side in the pics).  I did learn from this that 1) the ground is very delicate and 2) It doesn’t penetrate the wood very far at all.  

I then hand rubbed a coat of Doratura Minerale.   This was thick stuff, which can be thinned a bit with the special oil that comes with it.  On my next instrument, I will probably omit this step, because for me it filled in the winter coat reed lines to some extent, and the refractive ground alone is quite nice as long as you apply it carefully.  I probably should have followed the instructions to rub the cured Doratura with odor free kerosene to get the mineral particles off the surface, but I used 2000- grit sandpaper.  (note to self; follow ALL of the instructions).  

I put two coats of Old wood yellow varnish on next.  It looks dark in the tray, but after you rub it on, it looks clear.  The violin looked very pretty, but colorless.    I then did one coat of dark brown and one coat of dark brown with red mixed in.  It still was not very dark.  I knew I needed more pigment.

I toyed with mixing artist oil pigment in with the varnish but by now I was very wary of creating my own disasters, so I bought the $150 brown/red natural pigment from Old Wood.  I mixed this with dark brown and applied it.  Getting a highly pigmented coat on even was much more of a fuss for me, but I was able to do it.  I then followed that with two coats of amber varnish.  Here are some things I learned about hand applying the varnish: (yes, more mistakes)

A little bit goes a long way.  I put small amounts in an artist’s tray which worked well.  

A couple drops of Old Wood thinner may help with the spread.  

Rub in with circular motions, but I found on the top the final motion should be along the reed lines, and on the back in the direction of the curls.  Check for color uniformity looking straight at it under bright light and check for surface defects by looking at reflective light from an angle.  

Get it on a section, then leave it alone.  Trying the fix minor defects after the varnish has set will result in roughness of the layer.  

My routine was back, top, sides, edges, then scroll.  

Use a fresh clean cloth to dab extra varnish off your gloves.  Slightly wetting the cloth with the Old Wood thinner may help, but don’t overdo that.  

A stiff bristle brush is a must for getting pooled varnish out of tight spots.  Another small brush is helpful for coating the inside of the F holes and other small spaces.  Do the F holes just before rubbing that part of the top.  

Between coats, you can rub with fine abrasive, but only to remove tiny dust particles.  It is really easy to rub right through the previous coat, resulting in uneven color etc.  I used 2000 grit paper with brief wet sanding, almost no pressure.   

Another error:  I should have paid a lot more attention to the joints between the plates and the sides.  I assumed that the varnish would cover for any small defects, but it would have been better to make sure that these joints were totally clean and then make sure not to allow varnish build up at the joints, which just looks sloppy under magnification.  

I used pumice then rottenstone to rub out the varnish, but this resulted in too matt of a finish for me.  I rubbed an extremely thin layer of amber on top of that, and then very VERY gently went over that with rottenstone only, and that gave me the sheen that I like. 

The series of pics here first shows the violin with ground, then the finished instrument.  I had a lot of trouble capturing the actual finish, which is really quite nice.  Tangential lighting eliminated bothersome reflections but then made the finish look artificially strange and blotchy, so I have posted several lighting options for the top and back.  The highly reflective back picture shows the true character of the finish the best.  The wood for the back of my violin was very inexpensive, so the fact that only part of it shows curl is a true reproduction.  The part that does have curl has nice chatoyance.  

The sound:  when newly cured, the high notes on the violin seemed to me a bit muted, but with a few weeks of further setting, the violin is coming back to the bright or even better tone that it had in the white.  The varnish is not yet done curing.    

In case it is not clear, the pics (submitted with lower resolution IAW instructions) show
1.    Front and back after ground application, bare wood for reference
2.    Final varnish front
3.    Back without glare, tangential lighting
4.    Back with glare, direct lighting

 

Pics: