martin swan Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 I thought this wood looked very characteristic but of course I could be wrong. I'm keen to know more on the subject, and would be interested in some facts in relation to American makers and their sourcing of wood. If close study of similarities and differences isn't sufficient, maybe there are records about wood usage which can be cited by someone knowledgeable about American makers (maybe a tonewood catalogue or two)? If not, we have dendrochronology, and would quickly be able to exclude an Alpine source. Perhaps Jesse would be willing to post a sharp image of the lower table? I doubt he'd mind being proved wrong about the source of the wood, since it really has no bearing on the value of the violin.
pahdah_hound Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 Some examples of North American Red Maple, Acer Rubrum It is very distinctive and easy to identify.
Carl Stross Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 Some examples of North American Red Maple, Acer Rubrum It is very distinctive and easy to identify. And for stupids like myself : what is distinctive and how do I identify it ?
jacobsaunders Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 And for stupids like myself : what is distinctive and how do I identify it ? Carl, he means that it is easy for any ebay liar to say ”oh look that is North American Red Maple, Acer Redrum”. The word “identify” means something else though, particularly since 2nd. rate maple grows pretty well everywhere except in the rain forest. By the way: I just noticed that "Acer Redrum" is Murder spelt backwards, Am I being wound up again?
martin swan Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 "Rubrum" not "Redrum" ... ... betting on the wrong horse there Jacob!
jacobsaunders Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 "Rubrum" not "Redrum" ... ... betting on the wrong horse there Jacob! Caught me ”editing” rub-handed
Conor Russell Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 For what it's worth, I did the plugs and points on my first ever J B Squier today. The head looked like Markneukirchen, but the maple in the back and sides had those little dark lines, like mineral stains, that I have seen in American wood. (and also, by the way, something similar in Chinese) It was a well made fiddle, with very long fine purfling points going through the middle of the corners.
pahdah_hound Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 And for stupids like myself : what is distinctive and how do I identify it ? Its not a matter of stupid, just whether on not you know. The small, dark streaks or sap marks that run perpendicular to the flame, parallel to the grain, in a random pattern is the most distinctive clue to identifying North American Maple. They are most noticeable in the first and third photos.
Kevin Kelly Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 the maple in the back and sides had those little dark lines, like mineral stains, that I have seen in American wood. (and also, by the way, something similar in Chinese) Joe Robson or Nate or someone who's cut wood can correct me, but it can be really hard to tell Acer Rubrens (Red Maple) from other kinds of maple that are found in violins. Usually it is really easy, because almost all Red Maple has those bug tracks along the grain, that are caused by a bud beetle entering the end of the branch and working its way down the trunk over time. The red streaks are the tree's own filler for the resulting channel. If you're a wood dealer, it's called "golden thread". If you're a fiddle maker, it's called "red line" (or bug @#$). Red Maple that has no bug track costs more than Red Maple with bug track. Red Maple without bug track looks, feels, and tastes just like the other kinds of maple (they always tell me it's Pseudo-platanus (sp?) if I ask, not that I would know the difference anyway) that people sell for making violins. It has all kinds of figure, and you can find all kinds of grain width, and a normal range of densities. It's called a "soft" maple, as opposed to a "hard" maple like Sugar Maple. (Joe? Nate?) It generally is a very good wood for making violins and other stringed instruments. Once, about 25 years ago, I thought that I might try to get some violin wood from western Mass., where I grew up. I asked someone I knew who had connections in the wood business about it, and after asking around, he told me there happened to be a couple of prime trees at a mill in the area, so I went over to see. When I got there, the fellow told me that the logs were 1) sold already, and 2) going to be shipped to Germany.
Conor Russell Posted October 8, 2013 Report Posted October 8, 2013 Thanks for that explanation Kevin. I'd often wondered about these marks.
pahdah_hound Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 I second Conor's thanks Kevin. That was a very enlightening explanation. I have always used the presence of those marks to identify American grown maple, although I have also seen American maple where the marks are very faint and hard to see for sure like the second example in the photos above. I find it much more difficult to identify other woods but I have had a lot of experience with American violins. Jesse
Addie Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 "Rubrum" not "Redrum" ... ... betting on the wrong horse there Jacob! yes, only the ‘r’ should be a small ‘r’ Acer rubrum first word capitalized, second lower case, all in italics. If you guys can correct my French and German, I can correct your scientific Latin.
Addie Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 For North American plants, I usually go to the USDA/FEIS database. http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/acerub/all.html#BOTANICAL%20AND%20ECOLOGICAL%20CHARACTERISTICS TAXONOMY :Red maple is a member of the maple family Aceraceae [97]. It exhibitsgreat morphological variation and has been included in a highly variablecomplex of related taxa [79,97]. The currently accepted scientific nameof red maple is Acer rubrum L. [97]. Many varieties and forms have beenidentified, but most are no longer recognized. The following varietiesare commonly recognized: Acer rubrum var. drummondii (Hook. & Arn. ex Nutt.) Sarg. Acer rubrum var. trilobum Torr. & Gray ex K. Koch Several forms, differentiated on the basis of various morphologicalcharacteristics, are commonly delineated [38,86]: Acer rubrum f. tomentosum (Tausch) Siebert & Voss Acer rubrum f. rubrum Acer rubrum f. pallidum Red maple hybridizes with silver maple (A. saccharinum) under naturalconditions [64]. Insects/disease: Loopers, spanworms, the gallmaking maple borer, maplecallus borer, Columbian timber borer, and various scale insects arecommon damaging agents [4,97].
pahdah_hound Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 Carl, he means that it is easy for any ebay liar to say ”oh look that is North American Red Maple, Acer Redrum”. The word “identify” means something else though, particularly since 2nd. rate maple grows pretty well everywhere except in the rain forest. By the way: I just noticed that "Acer Redrum" is Murder spelt backwards, Am I being wound up again?
Addie Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 Come on gentlemen.... OK, I apologize for my scientific Latin pedantry.
jacobsaunders Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 If you take a violin like one of these, and send it to somewhere where they know what they are talking about, like the Royal Botanical Gardens in Kew, for instance, they will first keep you waiting for ages, then they will want to saw it up, so that they can look at it through a microscope from different directions. After waiting months, they will send you a list of Acer whatevers that it could be, from all five continents. So if a self-taught on-line dealer tells me, just by looking at it, that it’s “Acer rubrum” I would be far more likely to believe that it’s a Ceruti
Rue Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 yes, only the ‘r’ should be a small ‘r’ Acer rubrum first word capitalized, second lower case, all in italics. If you guys can correct my French and German, I can correct your scientific Latin. ...or...if you prefer...you can underscore...Acer rubrum - although you rarely see that anymore with the advent of word processors.
martin swan Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 Here's a small representative sample of who counts as an "online dealer" these days ... http://www.amati.com/music-shops/dealers/page-1.html It runs to 8 pages, so it's pretty time-consuming to go through it and think about which of these people are "self-taught" or not. However, the portion of the venn diagram which contains "online dealer" and "self-taught" now contains many of the luminaries of our trade, and to keep hurling out "self-taught online dealer" as a term of abuse seems a bit Canute-like!
fiddlecollector Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 People on here used to say these tracks were a sign of Chinese maple ,now its also a sign of American maple .
jacobsaunders Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 because they are the ones who are telling me the sub-species of violin-back maple, although Kew gardens couldn't
Addie Posted October 9, 2013 Report Posted October 9, 2013 because they are the ones who are telling me the sub-species of violin-back maple, although Kew gardens couldn't
JesseBrano Posted October 10, 2013 Report Posted October 10, 2013 Personally I like the look of this violin a lot, but that's based on personal experience of several very similar looking violins that sounded excellent. Sound samples are a thorny issue, but I do think that if even 20% of violin dealers could play at this level, the world would be a better place. I don't set much store in sound samples, since you're always hearing a room, a recording approach and a player before you hear the violin, but I can hear that this is a sweet and fruity violin with a particularly nice tone on the G. I don't see any extraordinary claims in the listing, and the price seems fair. If I was worried about the overstand I would ask for detailed photos, and if there's a problem I would offer less. Mr. Swan, thank you for your reasonableness and kindness. You are a bresh of fresh air among the immoderate rudeness of others. And right on about sound samples! I took them down for a long time because I thought it was actually harming the image of certain instruments I had. There are good hand-held sound recorders that catch more.. but I don't have one! I just use the Canon powershot that took this: And my goodness, if China could grow something similar to this, then whoever thinks Conway would have sourced from China what he had in his own backyard is well... let's leave it there, lol. It's amazing the kind of lack-logic that people will use just to pit themselves against others.
JesseBrano Posted October 10, 2013 Report Posted October 10, 2013 If you take a violin like one of these, and send it to somewhere where they know what they are talking about, like the Royal Botanical Gardens in Kew, for instance, they will first keep you waiting for ages, then they will want to saw it up, so that they can look at it through a microscope from different directions. After waiting months, they will send you a list of Acer whatevers that it could be, from all five continents. So if a self-taught on-line dealer tells me, just by looking at it, that it’s “Acer rubrum” I would be far more likely to believe that it’s a Ceruti You know, I should have known that all the modern makers don't know a darned thing about wood, simply because they don't work at the Royal Botanical Gardens in Kew, for instance. And certainly not dealers.. And that must include you! LOL!
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 10, 2013 Report Posted October 10, 2013 And my goodness, if China could grow something similar to this, then whoever thinks Conway would have sourced from China what he had in his own backyard is well... let's leave it there, lol. It's amazing the kind of lack-logic that people will use just to pit themselves against others. Actually, I've seen some very nice Chinese wood. Feng Jiang in Ann Arbor (who won the double gold at the VSA) and his brother Shan in NY used (and probably still does use) it regularly. For what it's worth, concerning the fiddle in question, the wood does look like what I think of as American, or North American, maple. When I was at the firm, we carried similar stuff, cut in the US. Easy to be sure when you know which forest it came out of and know the harvester. I could probably have done that with my eyes closed. Now, I've only been doing this for 30 some years, but what I usually notice in North American timber is the wider often "squiggly" grain and the reflection of the fleck. Not terribly strong data. The streaks are often, but not always, there and also occur in wood from elsewhere. Fact is, I've seen similar characteristics in wood from all over the place. Further problem is wood has been sourced from North America in Europe and visa versa for a very long time... and more recently, Chinese wood is being sourced and distributed (as who knows what). Similar wood is to be seen on some British violins by George Wulme-Hudson... and I've been told by what I would consider reliable sources that he sourced some of his wood from a dealer who imported Canadian timber... but I have never seen documentation to that effect. That said, I've seen similar wood on (usually later) Roccas too... so did that come over on a ship or was it cut in his back yard? I've looked at the end grain of a number of maples under magnification, and I'm convinced I can't identify a specific maple sub-species in this manner. Maybe a slip on a slide under a very strong microscope would be more revealing, but I haven't bothered... and I'm not willing to educate myself in how one might make that distinction. There are others, with the proper training and/or have made the effort who I'm sure can get closer than I will ever get. So... I'm with Jacob. The best I could do is to say "it looks like it what I think of as North American maple". Wow, that was kind of circular, wasn't it!
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