For Peter KG, Don Noon, and others interested in engineering.

[GlennYorkPA]

Yes. Absolutely. I heavn't played for some 30 years though and at the time I wasn't informed enough to attribute the differences to construction issues. To me it was more a matter of bridge / post fit.

 

It's true that the best violins get the attention of the most talented setter uppers but there is still a fundamental quality in the instrument that can be appreciated in the first few seconds of the bow hitting the strings.

 

Watch this testimony of Joshua Bell falling under the spell of the ex Huberman Stradivari.

 

 

 

Glenn

[David Beard]

That's what its all about!  He tried a few notes on it and now won't play anything else.

[Peter K-G]

The Ex Huberman is the purest sounding Strad I have heard. I have a couple of CDs that I play around Christmas time There is mostly talk about how it was stolen, But try to listen to some clips on the Youtube. It is not only the player. The instrument is magical!

 

Particulary in the beginning of Beethoven III movement you can here round carrying power, not raw power.

I doubt that this instrument would stand out in a blind test. But it would still be one of the best violins in the world.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Absolutely no need to apologise, Torbjorn, You have a wonderfull method which shows fantastic insight and the courage to do things differently.

Please, one day, you might want to prepare for us a more detailed article or even a thread where we could follow your system.

Hi Carl,

Thanks for the support. I am thinking about that. I'll probably start a thread in Contemporary Maker's Gallery when I get the time. I have been collecting data for a more in depth article, or even a book. There is lots more to say about this. I am just amazed that some knowledgable people refuse to see the usefulness of this approach and the evidence for its historical use.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

I was going to suggest a thread also and you beat me to it!     It would be interesting to see more details of the whole process.   There are some questions like how do you get the straight area on the long arch of the top plate?   And why does the anvil have padding to protect the inside from getting dents where they won't show anyway?   And how do you get rid of all the dimples on the outside of the plate?  

 

When I built my first VSO I used a punch to get an even depth on the purfling channel (I was clueless lol ).   After carving the channel, I stained the wood and some of the pits that I thought were gone suddenly reappeared!   Of course I would not stain like that again,  beginner mistake. 

Hi Mike,

I'll send you a PM.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Torbjorn,

Thanks for your comment.

I haven't made a violin in over 30 years;  I just collect and play them.

So I'm interested in the relationship between the making process and the performance because I'm detached from it.

I'm fascinated that you attach no acoustic significance to the recurve preferring to concentrate on the arching.

I thought John did a good job drawing attention to this detail and it deserves more discussion.

 

I have had several modern violins from Italian luthiers (they are readily available in the auctions rooms at modest prices) and none of them stands the test of time. Even beat up 18thC violins generally outperform them so I'm persuaded that all the attention paid by many modern violin makers to arching (and it seems something of an obsession) doesn't capture what some old instruments deliver.

 

I don't want to fall into the trap of generalizing because I know that some moderns perform well but, let's face it, most are mediocre and succeed in thrilling for a while and then are consigned to the closet or the sale room. (Yours may well be the exception   ).

 

Earlier in this thread, mention was made of a shallower channel in the block area of Cremonese violins. That got my attention because it sounds like a significant detail of the arching that may have been overlooked. But the discussion lapsed back to cycloids and catenaries where differences of fractions of millimeters between theoretical shapes and chiselled copies are discussed as though they held a crucial key to performance characteristics which they demonstrably do not.

 

From a performer's point of view, what distinguishes most modern violins from the million dollar+ instruments isn't the tone (harmonic spectral analysis) it's the ease of tone production. Ask any great performer and they will acknowledge that they commission and own modern violins to give their Strads and DGs a rest but they are exhausted after performing a concerto on them. The oldies play themselves and that's a quality I don't see discussed much. 

 

Glenn

 

Glenn,

 

I'd be interested in your impression of my violins. If you're in the vicinity, do please contact me and I'll arrange so that you get to play one. As far as I know, there haven't been any comparisons made between inside vs outside first violins. The one blind test that I've been involved in showed my violin to beat a Strad and a G.B. Guadagnini. That may not convince you or anyone, and not even myself, trust me. I was actually disappointed that the Strad didn't get a better response. It simply shows that it wasn't among the best.

 

"... though they held a crucial key to performance characteristics which they demonstrably do not."

 

This is incorrect IMO.

 

Best, Torbjörn

[GlennYorkPA]

Glenn,

 

I'd be interested in your impression of my violins. If you're in the vicinity, do please contact me and I'll arrange so that you get to play one. As far as I know, there haven't been any comparisons made between inside vs outside first violins. The one blind test that I've been involved in showed my violin to beat a Strad and a G.B. Guadagnini. That may not convince you or anyone, and not even myself, trust me. I was actually disappointed that the Strad didn't get a better response. It simply shows that it wasn't among the best.

 

"... though they held a crucial key to performance characteristics which they demonstrably do not."

 

This is incorrect IMO.

 

Best, Torbjörn

Torbjorn,

 

It would give me great pleasure to put one of your violins through its paces. I love testing violins.

 

There are no absolutes in this business. We know that what appeals to one may not appeal to another but even my taste has changed over the years.

I used to look for power and focus but I had one violin that had too much of both and hurt my ears so I didn't play it for years. 

Finally it was certified as Mateo Goffriller so I sold it to fuel my search for the perfect instrument(s) for me.

 

The most modern one I have is a 1937 Anders Halverson (didn't he come from near you?) but the older ones tend to be smoother for my ears.

 

I live in Pennsylvania and don't get to northern Europe often but when I do, I'll take you up on the offer.

 

Glenn

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Torbjorn,

 

It would give me great pleasure to put one of your violins through its paces. I love testing violins.

 

There are no absolutes in this business. We know that what appeals to one may not appeal to another but even my taste has changed over the years.

I used to look for power and focus but I had one violin that had too much of both and hurt my ears so I didn't play it for years. 

Finally it was certified as Mateo Goffriller so I sold it to fuel my search for the perfect instrument(s) for me.

 

The most modern one I have is a 1937 Anders Halverson (didn't he come from near you?) but the older ones tend to be smoother for my ears.

 

I live in Pennsylvania and don't get to northern Europe often but when I do, I'll take you up on the offer.

 

Glenn

Glenn,

 

I look forward to it. You're very lucky to have owned a Goffriller. I looked for your maker and found a Otto Halvarsson, but no Anders. Maybe he was Norwegian? Or Swedish-American? The spelling could point to that.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Hi Carl,

Thanks for the support. I am thinking about that. I'll probably start a thread in Contemporary Maker's Gallery when I get the time. I have been collecting data for a more in depth article, or even a book. There is lots more to say about this. I am just amazed that some knowledgable people refuse to see the usefulness of this approach and the evidence for its historical use.

 

Hi Torbjorn, I have not used your ideas but I DO find them fascinating. Especially where the Ventral pin is involved. As violinmakers the predominating thing of our modern  era is towards an external aesthetic..BUT for a lot of instrument makers especially woodwind the internals are all important 

[actonern]

 "...I am just amazed that some knowledgable people refuse to see the usefulness of this approach and the evidence for its historical use..."

 

 

 Torbjorn:

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I've been following your theory with interest ever since it was published in the Strad.

 

No one that I've seen on this forum has ever dismissed the validity of your method for making good violins or "the usefulness of this approach."

 

What a lot of experts have categorically said, repeatedly,  is that you're wrong about claiming that the "inside first" method was used by the golden period Cremonese makers. 

[Melvin Goldsmith]

 Torbjorn:

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I've been following your theory with interest ever since it was published in the Strad.

 

No one that I've seen on this forum has ever dismissed the validity of your method for making good violins or "the usefulness of this approach."

 

What a lot of experts have categorically said, repeatedly,  is that you're wrong about claiming that the "inside first" method was used by the golden period Cremonese makers. 

Ern....There are no experts ....There are a lot of 'experts'. There is a hell of a lot that we do NOT know about what the old Masters did and there is a lot claimed..... Some folk might claim that we have an angle on what the old guys did. We DON'T 

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

As violinmakers the predominating thing of our modern  era is towards an external aesthetic..BUT for a lot of instrument makers especially woodwind the internals are all important 

Hi Melvin, That's absolutely right. Many violinmakers don't realise just how much focus they put on the aesthetic. I was guilty of this myself when I went to violinmaking school. It made me blind in a sense.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

What a lot of experts have categorically said, repeatedly,  is that you're wrong about claiming that the "inside first" method was used by the golden period Cremonese makers. 

Well, I don't know that 'a lot of experts' have said that. 'The jury is still out' as the American expression goes.

[Don Noon]

It is very tempting to say something at this point, but as it would only be an opinion contributing to downhill momentum, I will:

[GlennYorkPA]

Glenn,

 

I look forward to it. You're very lucky to have owned a Goffriller. I looked for your maker and found a Otto Halvarsson, but no Anders. Maybe he was Norwegian? Or Swedish-American? The spelling could point to that.

 

Torbjorn,

 

Here is some information about Halvarson:

 

 

The Brompton’s Book of Violin & Bow Makers

Author: John Dilworth

HALVARSON, Anders Enfried Born 1900 Malung Sweden, died 1972 Nashville, Michigan USA. Violin and bow maker. Emigrated to the USA in 1924 to work for William Lewis & Son in Chicago. Established independently in Nashville from 1926; later in association with William Meyers as ‘Meyers & Halvarson’. Prolific output. Bows branded: MEYERS & HALVARSON up to 1958; thereafter: HALVARSON. Some 100 violins and 12 violas of various grades. [Wenberg]

 

It's a pity he isn't known in his own country because he was a brilliant maker. He worked with Carl Becker and the violins are very similar. In fact, the varnish is identical. They very rarely come on the market because their owners are still using them. I was lucky to buy one when it came on the market because everyone thought it was made in Nashville Tennesee and nobody ever made a decent violin in that place. No, this is Nashville Michigan, a small town near Chicago where he chose to live.

Glenn

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Torbjorn,

 

Here is some information about Halvarson:

 

 

The Brompton’s Book of Violin & Bow Makers

Author: John Dilworth

HALVARSON, Anders Enfried Born 1900 Malung Sweden, died 1972 Nashville, Michigan USA. Violin and bow maker. Emigrated to the USA in 1924 to work for William Lewis & Son in Chicago. Established independently in Nashville from 1926; later in association with William Meyers as ‘Meyers & Halvarson’. Prolific output. Bows branded: MEYERS & HALVARSON up to 1958; thereafter: HALVARSON. Some 100 violins and 12 violas of various grades. [Wenberg]

 

It's a pity he isn't known in his own country because he was a brilliant maker. He worked with Carl Becker and the violins are very similar. In fact, the varnish is identical. They very rarely come on the market because their owners are still using them. I was lucky to buy one when it came on the market because everyone thought it was made in Nashville Tennesee and nobody ever made a decent violin in that place. No, this is Nashville Michigan, a small town near Chicago where he chose to live.

Glenn

Glenn, thanks for the information, it is very interesting. I also wanted to learn from Carl Becker but it didn't happen.