Warning about UK live auctions and fake violins

[victordriver]

Thanks GeorgeH,

 

In my case it was a specialist auction - I guess I'm asking why the assessor would catalogue something as possible/probably instead of 'labelled' where no documentation exists. Might the buyer expect that a mental process involving that it isn't 'the usual' have taken place....

Got your point about the German strad although I think the original owner would be the one taking the action against the auction house. 

 

[martin swan]

If something is described with qualifiers (possibly, probably, attributed to etc) then you have no legal recourse. The auction house is acting primarily on behalf of the consignor, and will imply possible value wherever possible - this is part of them doing their job (to get the best price for the item).

If the description is factually incorrect but makes little difference to the value, I wouldn't expect ay kind of recourse either. For example, if a trade violin is described as French but is in fact German, that would not be grounds for kicking up a fuss. 

If the violin is described as "by" a given maker but is in fact a fake ie. an attempt to look like the work of that maker, then all the specialist auction houses would want to do the right thing by the buyer. But some have quite specific procedures for establishing whether the item was mis-catalogued.

Personally I think people have absurd expectations of auction houses. If you are not a specialist capable of making your own identification, don't buy ... even very experienced professionals make big mistakes.

[victordriver]

Hello Martin,

I'm not seeking recourse I bought it, I am responsible. My question is more about the thought process that puts one violin in the 'labelled as' box and another in the 'possibly by' box. My violin came with no documentation so no clues for the assessor/valuer except the instrument itself.

My repairer is taking the end pin out and having a look at the structure next week. He already spotted some writing.   

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, victordriver said:

Hello Martin,

I'm not seeking recourse I bought it, I am responsible. My question is more about the thought process that puts one violin in the 'labelled as' box and another in the 'possibly by' box. My violin came with no documentation so no clues for the assessor/valuer except the instrument itself.

My repairer is taking the end pin out and having a look at the structure next week. He already spotted some writing.   

The thought process? It's just BS. The seller or the auction house has no idea what the item is when they list it as 'possibly by'. I don't quite agree with Martin's point about it being "just doing their job" when in fact it's plainly dishonest.

[GeorgeH]

20 minutes ago, sospiri said:

The seller or the auction house has no idea what the item is when they list it as 'possibly by'.

How do you know that they have "no idea"? 

[victordriver]

I forgot to mention that it sounds wonderful...

[Rue]

Lol. Well - that's important too! 

[martin swan]

Hi victordriver - sorry i wasn't really addressing my comments to you. I know you tend to look carefully and research things.

My point is that the auction house is acting for the consignor and offers no legal guarantees to the purchaser. That is what an auction house is! It is a business whose purpose is to obtain the highest possible sale price for an item in the shortest possible space of time. That this involves a degree of over-egging of puddings, polishing of turds and lambing of mutton should be no surprise to anyone.

http://www.martinswanviolins.com/sales/buying-violin-auctions/

 

 

[victordriver]

cheers Martin,

my first posting was clumsy and caused confusion.

following your post above I will ensure that I smell all future auction offers....

[Jeff Jetson]

I have been to quite a few  auctions such as farm, livestock, construction equipment, deceased folks estates etc. and am always astonished at the prices people will buy stuff for, often enough they pay more for used junk than what they could go to Walmarts or Home Depot and buy it brand new for. I also think that shills have been planted at all these auctions I have attended  to spark a perceived  interest and entice participants to pay more than they had determined the item was worth. Just my opinion.

 

Someday I would like to go to an instrument and bow auction to satisfy my curiosity rather than to spend money and speculate on a violin or bow that I do not have enough knowledge to appraise for myself.

 

[Rue]

Couldn't agree with you more.

We have been going to auctions for 35 years  (antique) and have also noticed how people overspend. I understand auction fever...but a lot of time they are bidding on pure cr*p.

It's lost a lot of its appeal for me.

Dunno about the shills though. We know most of the regulars in our neck of the woods.

[sospiri]

I have seen chandelier bidding, where the auctioneer pretends to take a bid from a non-existant bidder. I subtly asked the auctioneer after the sale about this and he admitted that no such bid was accepted. It's not even illegal. There are other shady practices.

 

[sospiri]

19 hours ago, sospiri said:

The thought process? It's just BS. The seller or the auction house has no idea what the item is when they list it as 'possibly by'. I don't quite agree with Martin's point about it being "just doing their job" when in fact it's plainly dishonest.

 

19 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

How do you know that they have "no idea"? 

Because they are just using a famous name to increase the interest in the listing. When an auction house says a piece of neo-rococo English porcelain is 'possibly Rockingham' it means they have no idea, it could be one of over a hundred English porcelain manufactories from that era, so they name the most valuable one.

[martin swan]

It's interesting to me that people don't research normal auction house practice and then get irate when they pay more for something than they should.

In most auction houses' terms and conditions you will find that the auctioneer has the right to bid up to the reserve on behalf of the consignor. Whether they do this by pointing to themselves or taking bids off the walls is immaterial, as long as they don't bid the reserve price.

[sospiri]

4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

It's interesting to me that people don't research normal auction house practice and then get irate when they pay more for something than they should.

In most auction houses' terms and conditions you will find that the auctioneer has the right to bid up to the reserve on behalf of the consignor. Whether they do this by pointing to themselves or taking bids off the walls is immaterial, as long as they don't bid the reserve price.

Are you actually condoning such shady practices?

[martin swan]

It's not shady, it's clearly stated in the terms and conditions. A couple of auction houses also announce before the auction starts that they will be doing this.

It's not a question of condoning or not condoning, it's a question of understanding the rules.

When it comes to buying at auction, you need to know what you are thinking of buying, set a price that works for you, and ignore absolutely everything that is implied by the description and the estimate. To pay attention to the people around you or to the various forms of sales pitch sent your way is a recipe for disaster.

 

[sospiri]

I always pay attention. I've never had any cause for complaint, but several dealers have alerted me to certain things and others I have seen for myself. I'm not retracting the word shady. Maybe I have certain moral standards that you don't agree with?

[martin swan]

I doubt it.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

Because they are just using a famous name to increase the interest in the listing. When an auction house says a piece of neo-rococo English porcelain is 'possibly Rockingham' it means they have no idea, it could be one of over a hundred English porcelain manufactories from that era, so they name the most valuable one.

I know nothing about English porcelain. But I do know that if a violin or bow is legitimately described as "possibly by" a fine maker, than it should legitimately increase the interest in the listing. Nothing wrong with calling attention to that opinion so that potential bidders can decide for themselves. It won't necessarily increase the price.

If an auction company often used "possibly by" when it was clearly not, then they would lose credibility pretty quickly among potential bidders.

Often times instruments with certificates are not described by the auction house as being by the maker on the certificate, so auction houses will disagree with an attribution, even when you might think it is against their interests to do so.

[victordriver]

23 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

I know nothing about English porcelain. But I do know that if a violin or bow is legitimately described as "possibly by" a fine maker, than it should legitimately increase the interest in the listing. Nothing wrong with calling attention to that opinion so that potential bidders can decide for themselves. It won't necessarily increase the price.

If an auction company often used "possibly by" when it was clearly not, then they would lose credibility pretty quickly among potential bidders.

Often times instruments with certificates are not described by the auction house as being by the maker on the certificate, so auction houses will disagree with an attribution, even when you might think it is against their interests to do so.

It was the assertion in your second paragraph that I wanted to test opinion of.

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

I know nothing about English porcelain. But I do know that if a violin or bow is legitimately described as "possibly by" a fine maker, than it should legitimately increase the interest in the listing. Nothing wrong with calling attention to that opinion so that potential bidders can decide for themselves. It won't necessarily increase the price.

If an auction company often used "possibly by" when it was clearly not, then they would lose credibility pretty quickly among potential bidders.

Often times instruments with certificates are not described by the auction house as being by the maker on the certificate, so auction houses will disagree with an attribution, even when you might think it is against their interests to do so.

I think it depends mostly on auction house and the assessor and how much knowledge they have. There are other factors involved which we could discuss for weeks and sometimes do. What never ceases to amaze me is how much myself and others are obsessed with old stuff, even though in my case I think that those fantastically expensive old intstruments don't sound better than well made new ones.

[sospiri]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

I doubt it.

You get upset by ebayers, but not auction houses? I don't get it?

[GeorgeH]

6 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I think it depends mostly on auction house and the assessor and how much knowledge they have. There are other factors involved which we could discuss for weeks and sometimes do. What never ceases to amaze me is how much myself and others are obsessed with old stuff, even though in my case I think that those fantastically expensive old intstruments don't sound better than well made new ones.

Agreed. But I like old stuff. I like a violin that I can imagine would have stories to tell. I like wondering who played on it before me, and who will play it after me. I like thinking about the maker who made it and the time of history that it was made in. Old violins capture my imagination.

I also agree that "those fantastically expensive old instruments don't" necessarily "sound better than well made new ones." But I will pay extra to have my imagination captured!

[victordriver]

Well said GH 

[sospiri]

On ‎11‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 5:02 PM, GeorgeH said:

Agreed. But I like old stuff. I like a violin that I can imagine would have stories to tell. I like wondering who played on it before me, and who will play it after me. I like thinking about the maker who made it and the time of history that it was made in. Old violins capture my imagination.

I also agree that "those fantastically expensive old instruments don't" necessarily "sound better than well made new ones." But I will pay extra to have my imagination captured!

I agree George, but I don't nesecarily have to pay more more to have my imagination captured because I'm also an obsessive bargain hunter.

I think lots of violins old and new meet the required standard of excellence in sound and playability. With an old violin I like a nice patina which I think is generally more of an oil varnish feature, especially on the back of the instrument.