Took the Plunge - First eBay violin - toughts?

[BassClef]

Terrific post Jacob, thank you.

[BassClef]

Is this an authentic Master Wien Violin or a frog?

 

1807 Jacobus Jany fecit Vienna rare violin

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1807-Jacobus-Jany-fecit-Vienna-rare-violin-/18135321844

 

 nice old 4/4 austrian violin labeled Jacobus Jany fecit Vienna 1807 or 1801,not sure about year
very rare maker,hard to find violin like that
good playable condition
color of varnish is little more red
violin comes with old hard case
Length of body is 359mm
sold as is

 

 

 

[BassClef]

^^^ Reslisted here:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-1807-Jacobus-Jany-fecit-Vienna-antique-violin-geige-/181359457384

 

With the following info: "at Brompton's I had it valued to around £600-800 (not £2000 as I thought before:)) sold as is"

[Blank face]

This poor violin was mistreated, stripped, revarnished in a way, that it's now hard to decide, of which origin it once was; the scroll looks decent in some aspects, but that's all what is cognizable at this pictures.

[BassClef]

The The Heidegger fell off the top of my bookcase along with two other violins (like dominos) and the The Heidegger's scroll snapped into two pieces.

 

I knew this day might come but didn't expect it to go down like it did. I think the area where the geared pegs were replaced with normal ones was a weak point. So it seems that this thread is ending on a low point, just like it began

[Blank face]

It would be cheap to insist now, that you were warned before, but that's what's keeping things going on (for your daughter, who might find another musical toy, and you).

Before starting another thread about repairing the pegbox of a worthless violin I'd like to propose, that you could bring it back to the place where it all came from:

An EBay auction starting with $1 no reserve "The Genuine Antique Rare Heidegger, restorable, collector's item!".

This might close the circle.

[Violadamore]

It would be cheap to insist now, that you were warned before, but that's what's keeping things going on (for your daughter, who might find another musical toy, and you).

Before starting another thread about repairing the pegbox of a worthless violin I'd like to propose, that you could bring it back to the place where it all came from:

An EBay auction starting with $1 no reserve "The Genuine Antique Rare Heidegger, restorable, collector's item!".

This might close the circle.

 

 

The The Heidegger fell off the top of my bookcase along with two other violins (like dominos) and the The Heidegger's scroll snapped into two pieces.

 

I knew this day might come but didn't expect it to go down like it did. I think the area where the geared pegs were replaced with normal ones was a weak point. So it seems that this thread is ending on a low point, just like it began

Klutz! Vandal! :P

 

[searching eBay for "Rare Heidegger]  Oh, just a thought.  Place it with Pahdah to sell, and this thread might go another 26 pages. 

[Rue]

My condolences...keep the carcass for future repair jobs...there¨s a silver lining in every cloud...

[BassClef]

A Dark Viennese Violin appeared on the most recent Antiques Roadshow did anyone else catch it?

 

Any comments on this cool violin and/or the evaluation?

 

Michael Andreas Partl, Vienna 1941 (EDIT 1741, thanks VDA)

 

 

EDIT: Here is the video along with a clearer image:

 

http://50.16.228.23/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201303A12.html

 

 

 

[palousian]

I wish Ms. Givens had made an effort to get that flipped-over tailpiece dealt with.  The trough carved by that fine tuner makes me feel ill.  Hopefully the suggestion was made off-line.

[jacobsaunders]

There are a few really nice Partl violins in the Kunst Historische Museum just down the road. Looking at this one makes one realise how detrimental to the state of ones health it can be to emigrate to America. I would rather not comment on what the “appraiser” said, although she would get heckled here

[pahdah_hound]

Claire Givens is well-respected, well, maybe only in America and England where we don't know the difference.

 

Andrew Dipper joined Claire Givens Violins as Vice President. Andrew Dipper, a highly respected maker and early instrument restorer brought Dipper Restorations from Taynton, Oxfordshire, England.

 

In 1988, she hosted the Violin Society of America International Violinmaking Competition. In 2005 she organized a conference for the National Music Museum named The Secrets, Lives and Violins of the Great Cremona Makers. She has written "In Focus" articles in The Strad magazine featuring a fine viola made by Minneapolis maker Mathias Dahl (June 2001), and a violin made by Giocoma Zanoli, Verona c. 1749 (October, 2000). In October 2010, Givens co-wrote with Andrew Dipper a Strad article on the King Henry IV Amati Bros.

 

Ms. Givens is a member of the Violin Society of America (VSA), the American Musical Instrument Society (AMIS), and the American String Teachers Association (ASTA). She served on the board of the Minnesota String Task Force and MN ASTA from 1987 to 1999. She has been a musical instrument appraiser for the Antiques Roadshow since 1999 and has appeared on numerous shows. Currently, she serves on the Executive Committee of the Board of Trustees for The National Music Museum, the Board of Advisors for the Yale University Musical Instrument Collection and the VSA Board of Directors.

 

 

Maybe in another neighborhood she would be heckled.  Around here, she is pretty well respected, but what do we know?

[jacobsaunders]

If that is an invitation to heckle, you will have to wait, because it’s my bed time now. On the other hand, if you are satisfied with such pearls of wisdom, I could just leave it

[palousian]

There are a few really nice Partl violins in the Kunst Historische Museum just down the road. Looking at this one makes one realise how detrimental to the state of ones health it can be to emigrate to America.

 

I have to say that not all fine Viennese violins that emigrate here are so abused. 

[Violadamore]

Michael Andreas Partl, Vienna 1941

 

I believe that's "1741"  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201303A12.html 

 

I would rather not comment on what the “appraiser” said, although she would get heckled here

Not by me, but you're still fair game

 

Way to go, Pahdah!  Good post.  Rah!

[BassClef]

Here's one selling for $17,000

 

http://www.davinci-vn.com/result_inst.php?atai=25

 

製作者：　Michael Andreas Partl
製作国：　Austria
製作地：　Wien
製作年：　1733
サイズ：　4/4
ＬＯＢ：　35.7（cm）
価格　：　¥1,700,000（税別）

 

 

[BassClef]

more pics...

[jacobsaunders]

I believe that's "1741"  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201303A12.html 

 

Not by me, but you're still fair game

 

Way to go, Pahdah!  Good post.  Rah!

I wonder quite what that is supposed to mean? Mr. Hound's post is entirely personal, and concerns exclusively contemporary, currently living people, and looses not one single word about the subject, which is 18th. C. Viennese violins. In short, exactly what Jeffrey has always forbidden. I am perfectly happy to discuss old Viennese violins, but couldn't care less who Ms Givens might be.

[Violadamore]

I would rather not comment on what the “appraiser” said, although she would get heckled here

 

I wonder quite what that is supposed to mean? Mr. Hound's post is entirely personal, and concerns exclusively contemporary, currently living people, and looses not one single word about the subject, which is 18th. C. Viennese violins. In short, exactly what Jeffrey has always forbidden. I am perfectly happy to discuss old Viennese violins, but couldn't care less who Ms Givens might be.

And the Disingenuity Award goes to.................    Jacob, by "not commenting", you commented.  Padah gave a good short CV of the appraiser in answer to your stealth ad feminam backhanding.  IMHO, that isn't forbidden because it isn't negative and doesn't address a seller's reputation.  Your original comment is at best, brinksmanship.  If you have a substantive difference with anything about the appraisal, for Heaven's sake share it with us.  We love to listen to your sagacity when you display it.

[BassClef]

I also quite enjoy reading Jacob's assessments of old dark black disgusting Viennese master instruments.

[jacobsaunders]

And the Disingenuity Award goes to.................    Jacob, by "not commenting", you commented.  Padah gave a good short CV of the appraiser in answer to your stealth ad feminam backhanding.  IMHO, that isn't forbidden because it isn't negative and doesn't address a seller's reputation.  Your original comment is at best, brinksmanship.  If you have a substantive difference with anything about the appraisal, for Heaven's sake share it with us.  We love to listen to your sagacity when you display it.

In the course of this long thread I have written any number of short essays on Viennese violins to absolutely no avail, since they seem to go into one of your ears, and out of the other, evidently without encountering the remotest resistance between. If you were to go through this thread, and edit them all onto a file of their own, you would have no difficulty explaining to the general public why the „road show appraisal“ is vacuous waffle. Once again, I could give a monkey's who is in the VSA etc., or not.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Claire Givens is well-respected, well, maybe only in America and England where we don't know the difference.

 

Andrew Dipper joined Claire Givens Violins as Vice President. Andrew Dipper, a highly respected maker and early instrument restorer brought Dipper Restorations from Taynton, Oxfordshire, England.

 

In 1988, she hosted the Violin Society of America International Violinmaking Competition. In 2005 she organized a conference for the National Music Museum named The Secrets, Lives and Violins of the Great Cremona Makers. She has written "In Focus" articles in The Strad magazine featuring a fine viola made by Minneapolis maker Mathias Dahl (June 2001), and a violin made by Giocoma Zanoli, Verona c. 1749 (October, 2000). In October 2010, Givens co-wrote with Andrew Dipper a Strad article on the King Henry IV Amati Bros.

 

Ms. Givens is a member of the Violin Society of America (VSA), the American Musical Instrument Society (AMIS), and the American String Teachers Association (ASTA). She served on the board of the Minnesota String Task Force and MN ASTA from 1987 to 1999. She has been a musical instrument appraiser for the Antiques Roadshow since 1999 and has appeared on numerous shows. Currently, she serves on the Executive Committee of the Board of Trustees for The National Music Museum, the Board of Advisors for the Yale University Musical Instrument Collection and the VSA Board of Directors.

 

 

Maybe in another neighborhood she would be heckled.  Around here, she is pretty well respected, but what do we know?

 

Pahdah and all;

 

First, I know and like both Claire and Drew.  Drew has been a guest teacher at the VSA/Oberlin Restoration Workshop twice, and I look forward to his involvement in future years.  They have a very nice shop in Minneapolis and I enjoy their company.  They were kind enough to invite me for a private viewing of a number of instruments at the National Museum this last fall.  BTW: I believe Claire is now also an accredited member of the Appraisers Association of America.  I don't think that was mentioned.

 

Second, I was one of the appraisers for the Roadshow for several years (15 years or so ago when it first started here in the States... before Claire was involved), so I have some reference for what that experience is like.

 

I've been invited back, but have thus far declined.  A couple reasons... 1) I enjoy my weekends and the summer gets used up quickly if you spend several of them doing the show.  2) (more importantly) I'm probably too conservative to do what the show requires at this point.  This is not meant to reflect negatively on those who choose to participate, but it is a serious point in our USPAP discussions in the Appraisers Association, and a good number of members discourage participation.

 

Let's look at #2 a little further.

 

A line of people waiting to show you their instrument, of course hoping for good news.  About 60 seconds or so to do an initial evaluation, all the time being chatted to and not in the best environment to accomplish said evaluation.  The show is looking for drama... i.e.. either an instrument that someone does not expect to have value, or an instrument that the owner thinks is worth a mint but isn't.  The appraiser is looking for airtime (notoriety) and credibility to the general public (most who know very little).  In a taped segment: The owner is not informed of your opinion before the segment is filmed. Adds to the drama.  History embellishments are encouraged to add spice to the event.

 

Honestly, this is not the sort of environment I'd choose to develop an opinion for a specific maker on anything but a very simple straight forward example of a maker I was extremely familiar with.  There is going to be, and is, a large margin of error present due to the venue and environment... and no chance to check one's own opinion with a colleague more familiar with the maker or school.  As far as I am aware, Claire isn't an authority on Viennese violins.  I am certainly not...  though there are some makers in the school that I'm sure we are both comfortable with.  I'm sure Claire is aware of the pitfalls as well, because In this case, from what I read in the text from the show, the actual evaluation was simply that it was old, worth 5K and needed some work.  The rest of the verbiage was icing and sprinkles.  She did her job, as far as the show priorities are concerned.

 

You may argue with his style, but Jacob's concern is not misplaced... and if I were the appraiser in this situation, would not take offense of the real message he is offering.  He's not a beer bellied wanna-be quarterback yelling at the coach of a football team on Monday night.  His specialty is this sort of instrument and he has repeatedly offered useful information concerning them.  The roadshow is simply battleground appraising at best.  I knew then, and know now, what the probable margin of error is there.  Pretty good reality TV as it goes, though.

[Violadamore]

You may argue with his style, but Jacob's concern is not misplaced... and if I were the appraiser in this situation, would not take offense of the real message he is offering.  He's not a beer bellied wanna-be quarterback yelling at the coach of a football team on Monday night.  His specialty is this sort of instrument and he has repeatedly offered useful information concerning them.  The roadshow is simply battleground appraising at best.  I knew then, and know now, what the probable margin of error is there.  Pretty good reality TV as it goes, though.

Thank you for a very informative post.  I have no doubt that Jacob could have done a superior job of appraising a Viennese violin, though one shudders at what might happen if he were exposed to a long line of ignorant folk waving rubbish at him.  Probably raise their ratings and become a permanent segment

My "argument" was strictly with the drive-by curmudgeoning of someone he didn't appear to be familiar with.

[BassClef]

Thank you for a very informative post.  I have no doubt that Jacob could have done a superior job of appraising a Viennese violin, though one shudders at what might happen if he were exposed to a long line of ignorant folk waving rubbish at him.  Probably raise their ratings and become a permanent segment

My "argument" was strictly with the drive-by curmudgeoning of someone he didn't appear to be familiar with.

 

That was the best part though It makes no difference who she is and thankfully her identity did not change Jacob's honest approach to the matter which is the best approach, no? Great post Jeffrey, very nice. Is anyone willing to guess what Jacob's opinion is about this violin/evaluation? Anyone have their own opinion? I suspect we might have to lay a few more turds in the driveway before Jacob will hose it down, he likes them to build up a bit before cleaning shop, heehee.

 

Here's a link to the video again from pbs and if you sign up you can see it in higher resolution (I didn't sign up) but here are a few more screencaps showing the label.

 

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365225273/

[BassClef]

STOP

 

 

Hamma Time! - OK the Hamma book only shows images of Partyl's son's violins. (also spelled Bartyl)

 

Not much online that I can find in a quick search.

 

"Victoria Martino studied in the United States and Australia. Drawing upon an unusual background in music, art history, and literature, she initiated interdisciplinary programs (lecture-concerts) at international institutions such as the Guggenheim Museum, New York, the National Gallery of Australia, the Museum of Western Art, Tokyo, the Albertina, Vienna, and the J. Paul Getty Museum, Los Angeles. Ms. Martino has a broad repertoire spanning five centuries, playing an original Baroque violin (Michael Andreas Bartl, c.1760) and a modernized violin (Jakob Stainer, c.1670.)"

 

Is this a pic of Ms. Martino with her modernized Stainer?

 

 

 

There is some information online about this family of makers in the following paper:

 

RICHARD MAUNDER. Viennese Stringed-Instrument. Makers,. 1700-1800.

 

http://www.greatbassviol.com/pdfs/maunder.pdf