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    • john

      Read the rules at the top of this page before posting.   12/30/16

      The rules are copied here for your convenience: The Auction Scroll is for sharing opinions on instruments listed and offered for sale online on this site or any other. It is for the civil exchange of ideas and opinions about the instruments themselves. The opinions expressed are solely those of the poster, and do not represent the opinion of Maestronet or its forum moderators. Personal attacks on individuals will not be tolerated and will result in banning from participation in the forums. For example you are free to state that in your opinion a certain instrument labelled such and such is or is not authentic. You can also support your opinion with facts as you see them, as long as you make no reference to the individual or company listing the instrument or use hearsay in your argument. You cannot say for example that such and such an instrument is not authentic because you know the individual listing the instrument is not trustworthy or you believe the company routinely uses false descriptions of its instruments. That will get you banned. Similarly, you can defend the authenticity of an instrument with the facts as you see them, as long as personal attacks and hearsay are not used. For example, you could refer to the shape of the f holes in support of a certain origin, but what you cannot do is attack any individuals that may hold a different opinion. This is a unique forum, so please abide by these rules to ensure it continues in its current form.
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BassClef

Took the Plunge - First eBay violin - toughts?

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BassClef   

Thanks again to those who have provided helpful information on MN and in person with both the toy and my 18th century Viennese.  A number of luthiers or experts gave me inaccurate information while a number, including employees who went above and beyond with their time and generosity, gave me very helpful and thoughtful advice and referrals. I should have saught out experts in German/Austrian instruments to begin with, not simply luthiers who have been around for a long time and were willing to present their opinion to me as fact.  One young lady who was particularly kind and generous with her time and knowledge referred me to a local expert as well as this forum.  I ended up getting the information I was looking for before turning to MN, but I wanted to give this place a try with the eBay violin. I was not disappointed! The facts and opinions you've given me about the history and value of the OP violin are appreciated.

 

And another question - Is it known why the dark varnish gained popularity during the 18th century in Vienna etc.?

 

Cheers

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MikeC   

Don't all the varnish makers here struggle to make their varnish dark?   That's sort of a goal isn't it?  Well not 'that' dark of course but I wonder what's in it?   Kind of looks like shoe polish.  But if you had something that dark it would probably look ok in an ultra thin layer and thin is another goal isn't it? 

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I've read that it was done to make church violins less flashy as well as that Gypsies painted theirs dark to hide the value of them, but I think I agree with Jane here.  Opaque dark varnish can hide a world of sins :lol: I've seen few cases of it on better violins.

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Wayne_T   

that particular seller makes a living out of violin restoration. i would assume that any damage has been repaired.they have a youtube channel called jd violins where they show the restoration work they do.

 

of course you can see the place the crack was but is it still open, i would say not.

 

im sure you will be happy with it for the pride you paid

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Violin makers through all ages made what their customers wanted/would buy. Varnish colour was therefore a fashion. All these old wives tales get incredibly boring

 

!. Cheap violins?, Yup. Vide eBay..

 

2. See my post #173 above. It links a vile example of........fashion?  Good word.  When I say "fashionable rubbish" in the future, you'll know what I mean..........

 

3. True, but I'm entitled to tell them

 

:P:lol:

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of course you can see the place the crack was but is it still open, i would say not.

 

 

 

If we're talking about the OPs original listing, I realize "not closed" is a term that many will naturally interpret to mean "open".  

 

The crack appears to be glued and may be sealed, but the deflection of the arch apparent (at the crack, which corresponds to the area pulled by the bass bar) in the photo indicates it's not what I'd consider "closed" (wood to wood contact the entire thickness of the plate, with no gaps filled with glue).  I posted photos of a crack that was "closed"  Even before touchup, the arch did not deflect at the crack.

 

I realize this is a matter of degree and perspective, but I think consumers should at least have an opportunity to understand and see the difference.

 

It's "jb violins", not "jd violins, by the way.

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BassClef   

I've read that it was done to make church violins less flashy as well as that Gypsies painted theirs dark to hide the value of them, but I think I agree with Jane here.  Opaque dark varnish can hide a world of sins :lol: I've seen few cases of it on better violins.

By chance do you remember where you read those theories? 

 

Off topic: I can't offer anything to this forum by way of instrument knowledge, but I did attend and take photos of every violin displayed at this exhibit a few months back: http://metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2012/lam-collection - if anyone would find it interesting or useful, I'd be happy to post them up on MN - just direct me to the correct place to do so.

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BassClef   

 

Violin makers through all ages made what their customers wanted/would buy. Varnish colour was therefore a fashion. All these old wives tales get incredibly boring

Who started this trend? What are the first known dark instruments of this type?

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Rue   

 

Violin makers through all ages made what their customers wanted/would buy. Varnish colour was therefore a fashion. All these old wives tales get incredibly boring

 

Okay,,,but WHO ever wanted the bright orange colour that's so prevalent? B)

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By chance do you remember where you read those theories? 

 

Off topic: I can't offer anything to this forum by way of instrument knowledge, but I did attend and take photos of every violin displayed at this exhibit a few months back: http://metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2012/lam-collection - if anyone would find it interesting or useful, I'd be happy to post them up on MN - just direct me to the correct place to do so.

I read them in different places, Victorian violin writers, for one.  I wasn't advancing the hogwash seriously, rather disposing of it.  Dark varnish is usually over undistinguished wood, in my experience, but not always.  Sometimes it's done as misguided (IMHO) antiquing, in which case it's unevenly applied over sometimes brilliant flame  :angry:  :rolleyes: .  There's a distributor on eBay who markets hundreds of darkly varnished Chinese as "German", thinking the brown crap is more authentic (I'm not going to tell them how to do it right :lol: ).[Yep, fake rubbish, :blink: Believe it. ]

 

Posting those sounds like a wonderful idea.  Either a Pegbox thread or in your Gallery, I'd say.  Maybe Jeffrey will have a place he prefers.you to post them in.

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Who started this trend? What are the first known dark instruments of this type?

 

 
 
The dark varnishes of the 18th C. (leaving aside the cheap 19th C “Dutzendarbeit”) are often referred to as “Black” and/or “Viennese” although they are neither “black”, as one discovers when having to retouch them, nor of Viennese origin. The oldest  violin I know (which need not mean there aren’t any still older ones) with this varnish is an Andreas Ott, from Füssen from 1722, and the youngest a M.I. Stadlmann from Vienna from 1812. Prior to that, the Viennese varnish was predominantly yellow. The yellow varnish was used side by side with the dark (I presume depending on who was getting the invoice) until about the middle of the 18th C. when some makers such as J.G. Thir started using deep red varnishes (although I have had dark ones of his too). At the beginning of the 19th. C., people started to try and copy antique instruments, rather than continue an indigenous tradition, so from this point, one can no longer even generalize.
 
I can no more tell you who started these trends, than you can tell me who first wore bell-bottoms or a mini-skirt. Regarding the colour, when retouching, one discovers that it is actually a very dark red with a touch of blue and until one realizes that, one will never manage to mach up the colour. This varnish was used by most of the Füssen diaspora, throughout the German-speaking area. I have a couple from Breslau, for instance. If you go into one of the thousands of Baroque churches around here (NOT to be confused with the nissen hut variety in Florida!) on a nice sunny day, you will be astonished at the bright colours of the paintings and frescos along with masses of gold-guilded woodwork, so quite why it should have been embarrassing to have a bright coloured violin in a church, makes little sense to me, particularly since they were played on the “Orgel Empore” (Organ balcony at the back), where you could not see them anyway.
 
PS: A further frequent “old wives tale” is that they have considerably darkened with age. This is certainly not the case, since in the course of the 100ish years that it was used, the violin makers would have noticed. I had a varnish sample analyzed years ago at Dortmund University from a J. C. Leidolff cello of 1764, and the colouring agent was identified as soot.

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If you go into one of the thousands of Baroque churches around here (NOT to be confused with the nissen hut variety in Florida!)

I see that Jacob's expertise on American regional church architecture needs a little work 

Here's a "Nissen hut" for you and a list of several more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_Cathedral_%28Jacksonville%29

http://www.adventglassworks.com/customers.html

 

It's encouraging to know that Jacob can both enter churches and go out in daylight, which should squelch some of the more scurrilous rumors circulating. smiley6581.gifsmiley1966.gif

 

 

:P:lol: (We won't go into the ones about me smiley1405.gif )

 

 

Jacob, thank you as always for a (mostly!) excellent post :)

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BassClef   

The dark varnishes of the 18th C. (leaving aside the cheap 19th C “Dutzendarbeit”) are often referred to as “Black” and/or “Viennese” although they are neither “black”, as one discovers when having to retouch them, nor of Viennese origin. The oldest  violin I know (which need not mean there aren’t any still older ones) with this varnish is an Andreas Ott, from Füssen from 1722, and the youngest a M.I. Stadlmann from Vienna from 1812. Prior to that, the Viennese varnish was predominantly yellow. The yellow varnish was used side by side with the dark (I presume depending on who was getting the invoice) until about the middle of the 18th C. when some makers such as J.G. Thir started using deep red varnishes (although I have had dark ones of his too). At the beginning of the 19th. C., people started to try and copy antique instruments, rather than continue an indigenous tradition, so from this point, one can no longer even generalize.

 
I can no more tell you who started these trends, than you can tell me who first wore bell-bottoms or a mini-skirt. Regarding the colour, when retouching, one discovers that it is actually a very dark red with a touch of blue and until one realizes that, one will never manage to mach up the colour. This varnish was used by most of the Füssen diaspora, throughout the German-speaking area. I have a couple from Breslau, for instance. If you go into one of the thousands of Baroque churches around here (NOT to be confused with the nissen hut variety in Florida!) on a nice sunny day, you will be astonished at the bright colours of the paintings and frescos along with masses of gold-guilded woodwork, so quite why it should have been embarrassing to have a bright coloured violin in a church, makes little sense to me, particularly since they were played on the “Orgel Empore” (Organ balcony at the back), where you could not see them anyway.
 
PS: A further frequent “old wives tale” is that they have considerably darkened with age. This is certainly not the case, since in the course of the 100ish years that it was used, the violin makers would have noticed. I had a varnish sample analyzed years ago at Dortmund University from a J. C. Leidolff cello of 1764, and the colouring agent was identified as soot.

Excellent post, thank you. Here's a photo of a purported Leidolff Cello from 1932, which I find most attractive.  Are these 18th century "black" cellos relatively rare?  Which are the best sounding of the lot?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Historic-Cello-Johann-Christoph-Leidolff-Vienna-1732-old-antique-/321114284294

$T2eC16hHJHwE9n8ikMDPBRePkF0i7!~~60_57.J

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Excellent post, thank you. Here's a photo of a purported Leidolff Cello from 1932, which I find most attractive.  Are these 18th century "black" cellos relatively rare?  Which are the best sounding of the lot?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Historic-Cello-Johann-Christoph-Leidolff-Vienna-1732-old-antique-/321114284294

$T2eC16hHJHwE9n8ikMDPBRePkF0i7!~~60_57.J

It is a fairly typical Leidolff cello, although I would have my doubts about her reading of the date. It is in a dreadful physical state though, and needs major work. Considering that, I find it very expensive (as an instrument for repair), although I can’t  fall into any degree of temptation, since it says “No returns accepted. No delivery to Europe and Germany” (I wonder why, my money must smell most unpleasant) The varnish seems mostly to consist of dodgy retouching and dirt. If one were to clean it properly, one would find it has a deep dark red brown colour. As if to prove my previous post, I have a similar cello from Anton Posch (also Vienna) from 1737, standing in the front room, waiting for me to get around to repair it, with the yellow varnish. A customer of mine, a cellist who studied with Kühne in Vienna, has a very similar Leidolff cello, which he bought from me, and which I first bought in a derelict condition from the monastery in Zwettl, where I presume Leidolff delivered it. His Cello sounds marvelous.

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Corilon (of Germany) not delivering to Germany..whatever next?

There are almost two reasons, why a german business seller doesn't want to sell in Europe, especially to the European Union:

 

1.) He/She would be in the duty to pay the 19% german VAT (Umsatzsteuer), except it is sold to another professional seller outside of Germany, to Jacob for instance.

 

2.)The EU law would force him to accept returns for any reason within 14 days, of course only from private buyers - that means, Jacob couldn't return it, if it is as described. But he won't buy it for the asked price, and no other maker, I suppose.

 

A Leidolff violin, 176..., probably made for his widow by another viennese maker (Thir?)

post-57937-0-09367900-1379355809_thumb.jpg

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.

 

A Leidolff violin, 176..., probably made for his widow by another viennese maker (Thir?)

attachicon.gifIMG_0548.JPG

 
Leidoff had one of the larger Viennese workshops, and judging by the amount of his instruments that one still sees (various colours!), 3 of which are in my workshop, presumably had ca. 8 or 10 people working for him, which makes it unsurprising that his widow continued the business some 12 years after his death

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I posted the picture to show, that the colour isn't black at all, as Jacob told, but more a chocolate brown, a bit reddish in a bright light, and with a touch of blue/violett. Hard to see in photos.

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BassClef   

OK let's turn it up a notch, here are photos of the violin that in part caused me to buy the OP violin.  It was purchased by my grandfather in Vienna around 1958, played until the '80s, and has sat since then.  I put a new set of strings on it a few months back when it came into my possession. I have been told the bridge is poor quality and will be replaced shortly. I will not be selling this violin in case that's a concern.

 

I've got a lot of questions but would first love to hear the opinions and impressions of the maestronet community.  I am purposefully not showing the label for now. What is this violin?

violin-1_zps412b3edf.jpg

 

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Super violin!

Interested to know what Jacob can tell us about the Jaura brand - did they do the neck graft?

Is the number on the fingerboard like a Hill number, or from an auction house?

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