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Starting first violin - Soundpost help


Kimmo89
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Thank you Robertdo.

 

This is where I ended up for now.

If all measures can be seen, please tell me if those are ok.

The Titian has more room for hand inside the corners. Is my measure good?

 

Viulunrakennusta6014.jpg
The peg holes are then at middle. I think I need to rise the first one from the scroll side, but others should be good and strings going freely in the box.

 

Measures 9mm from the edge of scroll. Then 13.5mm, 20mm, 16.5mm measured from middle of the peg hole.

Are these ok? Dont know if there is standarts for these.

 

 

Edit: Better to take the measure from the A spot / line (Muratov's picture). It is about 10.25mm to first peg hole.

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Its measured from the corner. Hard to explain things with bad english, but you see where the line goes and ends.

 

You also would want to see the latest picture I posted.

Theres more measures that I need to be confirmed so I can start sawing tomorrow, if not tonight.

 

Unfortunately I go away from my summerplace and from my bench.

After that I need to figure out how I can continue making this all in my home.

 

 

-Kimmo

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Ok, I am not familiar with the concepts and measures from your picture (Muratov?) I would say you can get the most important things from robertdos picture. I don not worry so much about the precise neck shape and neck heel shape until the neck is glued to the body.

ps. If you do not have it already I can recommend the book the art of Violin making by Courtnall & Johnson.

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Yes

I need still look the best way to get everything correct.

 

 

About the material for the tools again.

 

I am about to buy a rosewood block for cradle.

It costs me 75€, but at least it would last a long time plus I get a nice looking cradle from it.

Maybe it would be better to do it from softer wood, but I want that it wont damage right away.

 

The graduation punch comes from rosewood or walnut, depending what wood there is to get in ebay.

 

I am also preparing to buy a good quality spruce log for violin tops.

Since its still a log, I can get the quality to the sound. Just takes some time.

 

 

The violin progress slows down a bit for now since Im leaving my bench.

But I already bought a walnut table to my houses bedroom.

I just need to trim it to a workbench.

 

 

Seems to be much of burning money during the next winter so I can prepare everything.

 

 

 

Kimmo

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Yes

I need still look the best way to get everything correct.

 

 

About the material for the tools again.

 

I am about to buy a rosewood block for cradle.

It costs me 75€, but at least it would last a long time plus I get a nice looking cradle from it.

Maybe it would be better to do it from softer wood, but I want that it wont damage right away.

 

The graduation punch comes from rosewood or walnut, depending what wood there is to get in ebay.

 

I am also preparing to buy a good quality spruce log for violin tops.

Since its still a log, I can get the quality to the sound. Just takes some time.

 

 

The violin progress slows down a bit for now since Im leaving my bench.

But I already bought a walnut table to my houses bedroom.

I just need to trim it to a workbench.

 

 

Seems to be much of burning money during the next winter so I can prepare everything.

 

 

 

K, 

 

I'd advise against Rosewood for a cradle. It's very hard, and very oily. It might well dirty your violin and cause you problems when varnishing. 

 

If it's a simple cradle why not use a piece of your spruce, or willow? They're far easier to carve, clean, and much cheaper.

 

I think it's important to keep your work clean. I've seen people have to wash New fiddles with soft soap or go all over them with pencil erasers. If your hands, bench and tools are clean, you should be able to get on with varnishing without any of that messing . 

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Maybe walnut is better for this too?

Light woods are not option.

When the tool diffirents from the violin woods colour its more enjoyable to work them.

 

 

I am about to buy this workbench to my bedroom.

http://www.biltema.fi/fi/Tyokalut/Tyopenkki-ja-sailyttaminen/Tyopenkki/Hoylapenkki-20614/

 

I just dont understand why the tightening things are like that and I dont like it at all.

But this would now be cheap and maybe I can trim it better.

Or then I leave it like that and buy a regular iron vise? clamp? on another table.

By the way the table is walnut too and nice looking for working. I cant wait.

 

If someone knows a cheap little (lenght around 1400mm) workbench from europe that has the regular tightening, please tell me.

Around 150€ is ok. I get better benches when I have better places.

 

 

-Kimmo

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That bench looks a lot nicer than mine. The vises are pretty standard for low cost and low space woodworking. You can probably replace one of them with a metal woodworking vise, but a nice one may cost as much as the bench and may not be needed. I added a cheap used metal vise to mine but would rather have a nice wooden one. I would think this bench should serve you well for now.

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The guides at the vises are in the way.

I like to tight the wood deeply.

 

With iron vise I can fix that problem.

 

Of course its not too big deal to make the vise from wood. We will see.

 

 

 

I also checked my planes that I use for joining. And those bottoms are bad.

No wonder I couldnt get a good joint in there.

I think that No5 plane is enought after I flat it.

 

I also checked the new stanley small cleaner plane and its really bad too.

I see you just cant trust new planes either.

 

 

-Kimmo

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I checked the Biltema bench today.

And it looks so weak and light.

 

I will still think it a while. It has to be fixed with screws all around and needs to be bolted to the wall.

But of course, you cant get a new and good with 120 euros.

 

 

 

I would like to know more about the violin sound / wood thickess and quality.

 

 

Maple.

 

If the growth is about 50% 1mm / year and 50% 1.5mm - 2.0mm. (spring + autumn)

What exactly is the diffirence when this type of wood is carved to 2mm from upper and lower areas of the plate and about 4.5mm from middle.

Compared to 3mm from upper and lower areas and 5mm from middle.

 

Thinner is louder? Sharper sound? What else?

 

How does the flame in the maple effects in sound comparing thin and sparse to thick and dense flaming?

 

 

And same type of wood for spruce top plate, are the effects same?

 

I was thinking that the autumn growth makes the wood harder and gives it possibility for louder and cleaner sound but also more metallic sound. More autumn growth = more powerful sound.

Am I anyhow right?

 

 

How about the ribs. How much diffirense if the ribs are 1mm or 1.2mm?

 

 

I have only heard one violin next to me and that I remember. It did not sound good. It was too silent and the piano took all the sound from the room.

 

I was thinking if I want to ask this thing from here or do I test it myself making many violins in diffirent ways. But if I test it, i need to trash the bad violins so no one sees them.

Maybe the No.1 violin would be nice to save, but I believe that I cant get the sound I want out of there. If so, I will brake it and use the wood to tools or other things.

I already feel bad about the No.1. I was too hurry to get everything done when making and you see it from purfling and many places. But I finish it anyway just so I can get at least one violin experience for the next ones.

Usually I have very good patience, but I am too exited of making violins.

But now I know many of the mistakes and next ones will be look like a real violin. Still much to learn.

 

 

-Kimmo

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  • 2 weeks later...

As this topic is still here I will continue my work here then.

 

I now learned that its not the measures and weight but its the sound of the violin parts / woods.

And I now have a sound in my head what the maple back needs to sound like in diffirent spots.

I need to figure it out for spruce too.

 

I was already about to trash this first violin because of the stress what i have done for this. I just dont like the work.

Too unaccurate job all the way.

 

But like I said, main thing is that I can do it better on next ones and the next violin will look like a violin with a sharp beautiful purflings and most accurate joints in the wood.

 

I was starting to work with the top, but I think the wood is made for smaller violins.

The block measures only 110mm and the edges are thin.

No room for planing the joint when its not even close to 90 degree angle. And the edge is already under the measures what it needs to be when finished.

 

I still havent got the bench here. I hope I get it in next 4 weeks.

 

 

Now the neck here is a waste of time. And its again the preparation and my drawings.

Of course its not close to ready, but the mistakes are already there. Mainly the eye in the scroll.

Next time I make better plans for the scroll. The neck in the picture will not get its place to any violin.

 

 

Viulunrakennusta7006.jpg

Just wait till I get to the next violins. Theres then more to see.

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110 mm wide that goes down to a thin acute edge is too tight .....

..... but you can take the extra wood from the Upper bouts or CC-bouts after cutting the outline, and glue 'wings' onto the Lower bouts, widening and thickening your plate, using the same exact matching wood.   No adverse sound effects, and done well, almost impossible to spot.

 

If you look close enough at old instruments, you will see these 'wings' being used all the time when good wood was not wide enough.

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I need to see if I want to use this piece of spruce, the quality is not too good either.

 

 

Again some stupid questions.

What kind of UV-light closets others have?

 

What do you think, if I buy these lamps about 14-pcs, would it be enought to get the varnish dry in a small box where the violin nearly fits in.

4 lamps to front and back.

2 lamps to one side

and 1 lamp to up and down.

http://www.clasohlson.com/fi/UV-lamppu/36-4746

 

 

Or then I wait for hot summer.

 

 

-Kimmo

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I need to see if I want to use this piece of spruce, the quality is not too good either.

 

 

Again some stupid questions.

What kind of UV-light closets others have?

 

What do you think, if I buy these lamps about 14-pcs, would it be enought to get the varnish dry in a small box where the violin nearly fits in.

4 lamps to front and back.

2 lamps to one side

and 1 lamp to up and down.

http://www.clasohlson.com/fi/UV-lamppu/36-4746

 

 

Or then I wait for hot summer.

 

 

-Kimmo

 

That is not an UV lamp. It's a purple colored lamp for disco parties.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I will look what I need for the UV-box later.

Even tough I dont like the idea because its so modern.

 

Long winters in finland. I possibly just need to do it.

 

 

I got here nice beautiful walnut.

These are enought for 6 or 7 inside molds.

 

I want to test how the planes does with this kind of wood. I hope its good and easy because those boards are about 18.5mm.

I do them somewhere at 13-14mm. I think its good when removing the mold when both linings are glued.

 

Stradivari's P, G, PG are the first I need to make. I think these models of violins are most beautiful in there. Really goodlooking desing.

And I will do the Amati MB too.

 

Does anyone have any information of Guarneri del gesu inside molds?

 

Paumlhkinaumlpuu005.jpg

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I would need a confirmation for these measures before I start to make them.

 

G = 354.0mm  X  161.5mm  X  103.0mm  X  201.0mm (what is the real measurement for the lenght with blocks finished?)

PG = 348.0mm  X  161.0mm  X  103.0mm  X  200.0mm

S = 345.0mm  X  155.0mm  X  100.0mm  X  195.0mm

 

 

And does anyone have a scan picture of Amati MB mold? I also need the measures.

Muratov's sites not working anymore.

 

 

Thank you.

Kimmo

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I would need a confirmation for these measures before I start to make them.

 

G = 354.0mm  X  161.5mm  X  103.0mm  X  201.0mm (what is the real measurement for the lenght with blocks finished?)

PG = 348.0mm  X  161.0mm  X  103.0mm  X  200.0mm

S = 345.0mm  X  155.0mm  X  100.0mm  X  195.0mm

 

 

And does anyone have a scan picture of Amati MB mold? I also need the measures.

Muratov's sites not working anymore.

 

 

Thank you.

Kimmo

 

after Pollens  (block included) :

 

G : 350,5 - 161 - 103 - 201

PG : 347,5 - 161 - 102 - 200

S : 346,5 - 154 - 98 - 195

S 1703 : 344,5 - 157 - 101 - 196

MB : 343,5 - 155,5 - 101,5 - 193,5

 

after Denis (block included) :

 

G : 351 - 161,7 - 103,3 - 201,2

PG : 347 - 161,5 - 102,5 - 200,1

S : 346,5 - 154,6 - 98 - 195,2

S 1703 : 344,4 - 156,9 - 101,3 - 195,7

MB : 343,5 - 155,6 - 101,6 - 193,4

 

Sorry, no scan of MB form, maybe along with the Denis book but not sure.

 

Davide

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Hello Davide.

 

Seems to be much diffirense in these measures.

 

But I think that the measures by Denis are taken from the mold itself with a good tool because of the more accurate measures.

If its the purfling line style, its not telling the measures of the mold.

How it is?

 

 

I found a little picture of MB mold, its enought to get the shapes.

 

 

 

Thank you. I think Denis measurements will do it.

By the way I was just watching your video and listening the great musics.

Good versions of Bach.

 

 

Kimmo

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I think that Denis measurements are more accurate, even if are derived from an average of both sides of the form and taken from an average of many accurate scans (not from the forms).

Of course also the direct mesurement of the form are taken into account.

 

Pollens measurement are taken directly from the form.

 

Not a huge difference, anyway.

 

Davide

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