Starting first violin - Soundpost help

[jacobsaunders]

Still looking for answer for willow supplier in europe.

 

My father always used to scrounge it for free from Gun & Moore, Cricket Bat Manufactures in Nottingham. (Do they play cricket in Finland?)

[Will L]

Roger, I'll bite:

 

How did they bend without steam or water without breaking or partially breaking more ribs?  I know Strad is known for the C-bout fissures that appear so often, so whatever they were doing was iffy it seems.

[Kimmo89]

At least not in large scale. (cricket)

 

 

Somehow I would like to get the willow from italy, or really near from there.

Maybe I dare to take a risk and paying my order for them (tonewood international, cremona).

As I said, I have tried to contact them but havent got any reply. And the english sites are down.

 

 

The mold is now trimmed a little. Should be closer than earlier.

 

 

-Kimmo

 

[Will L]

BTW Kimmo,

 

I'm not sure anyone responded to the measurements that you gave in your OP.  I missed it at first.

 

There is a discrepancy in that the G form is definitely longer than the P.  You have the P as 348mm and the G as 347mm. 

 

If your form, without the blocks (from corner to corner) is reading 348, your violin will be too long for a P form violin.  But if you are measuring from the estimated blocks, you'll be fine.

 

Specifically:

 

Pollens gives 343.5mm for the P;  347mm for the G (using just the form)

Sacconi gives 348mm for the P; 354mm for the G (using the blocks)

 

Using either method, you can see that the G form is longer. 

[Kimmo89]

Thanks for the message Will.

 

The measurements at my mold are with the blocks.

I cutted the groove for the upper and lower blocks after i had the total lenght, 348mm shaped.

 

 

-Kimmo

[Fjodor]

Re willow,

I just heard that Simeon Chambers Tonewood Store (found on line) is selling willow. He is not in Europe; he's in Colorado. But maybe he would ship to you; may be faster than continuing to look around.

I can second that. I live in Finland and have ordered from Simon several times. Spruce also works fine for blocks and linings but it is a bit different to work with than willow.

http://stores.ebay.com/Simeon-Chambers-Tonewood-Store/Violin-Lining-/_i.html?_fsub=2826096010&_sid=72480140&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

[Roger Hargrave]

Roger, I'll bite:

 

How did they bend without steam or water without breaking or partially breaking more ribs?  I know Strad is known for the C-bout fissures that appear so often, so whatever they were doing was iffy it seems.

 

Guarneri Del Gesù thinned the ribs at the blocks down to half a millimeter at times. He also shortened the ribs in relation to the back and belly corners. Sometimes the overhang is less than 2mm, but at the corners the overhang can be up to 5mm. Strad C bout curves are very flat. You can sometimes judge this by looking at the line of the purfling. Unlike the Amati family these two did not need to bend their C ribs too much. If we add to this the likelihood that they used very fresh wood, heat alone or even no heat at all, and just slowly bending it like Windsor chairs were bent, will suffice. Windsor chairs were bent green, i.e. without having been seasoned.  I have made several del Gesù copies without heat or water; the flame tends to kink, but then so did del Gesù’s. Fresh wood bends like a dream. 

[Will L]

Thanks for that Roger,

 

It brings up a thought:  While most of us always look for well seasoned wood for ALL the parts, maybe just for the ribs use less seasoned wood, but keep seasoned wood for the plates.  Would there be any problems with mixing greener wood with seasoned wood?

[Violadamore]

I'd expect differential shrinkage, this was actually used to lock pegs and dovetails and such in place in glueless timber construction, but I'd expect it to pull the ribs away from the plates here.  One wonders, what if you bent the ribs green, assembled the garland on a mold, then left it to cure for a year or so before putting the plates on.?

[Conor Russell]

Lots of old violins have ribs cut from the back, so they must be the same age. If you use fairly fresh wood, and not tinder dry, say about four years old, it's easy to both bend and carve, and tends to settle down and develop that nice rippled surface that you see in the old fiddles. The wood also colours better before varnishing. I've done it sometimes, and I think that it's a great approach; left to hang in the white it has a chance to season 'as a violin'.

[Peter K-G]

Maybe they just used warm water and clamped it to dry on a template. I have done that when I got tired of warming up my steeltube. Nowadays I have a normal bending iron.

[Kimmo89]

I have a lot of flaming birch(?).

Maybe it can be compared to flaming maple and test how it can be bent in diffirent ways.

 

 

I have one question of hide glue now.

What is a good mixture at least when gluing accurate joints? Top, back etc.

 

The glue I have is from Dictum shop germany, named animal hide glue.

 

 

-Kimmo

[tango]

Guarneri Del Gesù thinned the ribs at the blocks down to half a millimeter at times...

 

...I have made several del Gesù copies without heat or water; the flame tends to kink, but then so did del Gesù’s. Fresh wood bends like a dream. 

 

Hello all

 

I thought, but did not say for fear of criticism but Roger always hits with his wise simplicity:

 

Is it possible that the ribs too wet splitting in flames? It seems to fall apart.

Sometimes I think that wet, or almost is better, and slimming the ribs in the corners would help me to bend them.

 

Thanks you Roger

 

Regards

Tango

[Fjodor]

I have a lot of flaming birch(?).

Maybe it can be compared to flaming maple and test how it can be bent in diffirent ways.

 

 

Kimmo,

Birch will behave much like maple in my experiece (but maybe a bit more prone to split)

If you have plenty of birch stock that's fine to practice bending on. If the flames are deep

the ribs are more likely to crack.

[Conor Russell]

I think that bending the ribs is best done dry, on a very hot iron, just short of scorching. Judging from the number of scorch marks you see on old fiddles I think that it was usually done that way. Occasionally it helps to put a slip of moist paper between the iron and the rib in a very tight curve.

 

For beginners, there's a temptation to bend big lengths of rib at once, and sort of hope that they'll fit, and then correct the curve.  I find that if you can resist that urge things go much better and quicker, with far fewer broken ribs.

 

I  start by bending a corner. Put the rib on the block and mark across the two with a pencil. Now see where the rib parts company with the form, put your finger there, and heat and bend that exact point. Now offer it up again, being careful to match your pencil marks, and repeat. Before you know it you'll have a finished rib. There'll be a bit of guess work in the c bouts, but it may help to draw the shape on paper and bend the rib to that, then correct if you need to.

[Roger Hargrave]

Lots of old violins have ribs cut from the back, so they must be the same age. If you use fairly fresh wood, and not tinder dry, say about four years old, it's easy to both bend and carve, and tends to settle down and develop that nice rippled surface that you see in the old fiddles. The wood also colours better before varnishing. I've done it sometimes, and I think that it's a great approach; left to hang in the white it has a chance to season 'as a violin'.

I think that's about right, but depending on the thickness you could use it earlier. The old books say one year and one extra year per inch of thickness. If you are also roughly carving the plates it should be no problem. I knew several old makers that roughly carved fresh timber to speed up the seasoning process. By the way seasoning is not the same as drying. In spite of this I still prefer very old wood. I know that there are many contributing factors to how wood behaves, but I am sure that part of the reason why older instruments seem to resonate so freely is because the wood is well seasoned. This was not necessarily so at the time they were made; in fact I believe that to some extent all these older instruments sort-of seasoned on the job. Yes, yes I know that this is going to get me into hot water but, when was I not up to my neck in hot water and worse.

[actonern]

I would have thought that a garland made from fresh unseasoned wood would be a disaster from the standpoint of stresses that would occur at the areas adjoining corner and end blocks.  As the ribs seasoned they would shrink inward where unsupported, but prevented from doing so where glued to a block... wouldn't that result in splits?  Especially on cello/bass sized instruments?

E

[Conor Russell]

I think that's about right, but depending on the thickness you could use it earlier. The old books say one year and one extra year per inch of thickness. If you are also roughly carving the plates it should be no problem. I knew several old makers that roughly carved fresh timber to speed up the seasoning process. By the way seasoning is not the same as drying. In spite of this I still prefer very old wood. I know that there are many contributing factors to how wood behaves, but I am sure that part of the reason why older instruments seem to resonate so freely is because the wood is well seasoned. This was not necessarily so at the time they were made; in fact I believe that to some extent all these older instruments sort-of seasoned on the job. Yes, yes I know that this is going to get me into hot water but, when was I not up to my neck in hot water and worse.

No hot water here!

 

When I see wobbly old cellos with concertina ribs, bulging at the soundproof, I think fresh wood.

[Jim Bress]

I have a lot of flaming birch(?).

Maybe it can be compared to flaming maple and test how it can be bent in diffirent ways.

 

 

I have one question of hide glue now.

What is a good mixture at least when gluing accurate joints? Top, back etc.

 

The glue I have is from Dictum shop germany, named animal hide glue.

 

 

-Kimmo

David Burgess wrote a good article on working with hot glue.  It is in the "The Best of Trade Secrets 2"  http://www.orpheusmusicshop.com/makers-making/SL283.html .  I have the best of trade secrets 1 and 2, and they are well worth the cost.  Whats nice about David's method of measuring set time of glue is that it gives you a starting point that you can refine to fit your making.    Below is thread where David briefly talks about gluing for the center joints.

 http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/321117-latest-strad-trade-secrets-questions-for-gluemeister-burgess/

I think there are number of "right" ways to gluing joints.  You just have to experiment a little and find which "right" way works well for you.

 

-Jim

[Kimmo89]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Someone told me that glue has to be 50/50, but its way too thick.

Im now using mixture what will feel good between fingers, not sticking at least in 5 seconds.

Some planed test runs are glued so hard that you cant brake the joint with hands. I think its not bad then.

 

This is my situation now.

Linings are there in a back side.

Some burning marks on the ribs, but theres still room to clean them.

I should have left the ribs thicker, now the lower corners are little too short.

But let me learn with this first violin. With little information about violin making, theres much what I need to learn.

The best way to learn is just to make the violin. Im too lazy to read.

 

[DBurns]

Thanks for the responses.

 

Someone told me that glue has to be 50/50, but its way too thick.

Im now using mixture what will feel good between fingers, not sticking at least in 5 seconds.

Some planed test runs are glued so hard that you cant brake the joint with hands. I think its not bad then.

 

This is my situation now.

Linings are there in a back side.

Some burning marks on the ribs, but theres still room to clean them.

I should have left the ribs thicker, now the lower corners are little too short.

But let me learn with this first violin. With little information about violin making, theres much what I need to learn.

The best way to learn is just to make the violin. Im too lazy to read.

 

Looks good.

I have not read all the threads posted, so if this has been answered, then I am sorry.

 

How thick is your mold?

Thanks

[fiddlesurgeon]

Looks like a textbook rib garland to me. A great start, imho.

Looking forward to seeing more of your progress.

Thank you for sharing.

[Kimmo89]

The mold is 14mm.

I possibly remove the mold next, before the top side linings are made.

Im not sure if the ribs keeps the shape but if they get twist, I will try to get the mold int there again and remove it after the back is ready and glued.

 

Im not sure what means textbook rib garland, but theres not books used to make this violin. Only couple videos and the Titian poster.

We can forget the copy of Titian now, but it still helps me.

 

 

I used water to bend the ribs. There was more burning maks than in that picture, because I tried to get the ribs as dry as I can at the hot iron.

Linings were bent dry.

[Fjodor]

"Textbook" means that is was made "according to the book" or following best practises.
Looks like you made a fine job so far!

I would not remove the mold before the outlines and overhang are traced on the top and the back.
 

[Peter K-G]

Kimmo, Aivan täydellinen! Onko se ensimmäinen vai sadas?