Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

Someone I know recently got this violin. Can anyone maybe help a bit on the value, country of origin, anything that might be helpful.

 

The violin's neck doesnt go into the violin top, so there is no neck overstand. The button is a different shape than usual, and the arching on the back is lower and not as round as you usually see. Someone who recently saw the violin said it had a baroque neck, but shouldnt it be straight with the body then? The neck is also quite thick from bottom to top.

 

The label seems to read "Christ Fridr Meisel aus Klingenthal" and then something that looks like "181". The label is oval shaped.

 

I had to take the pictures quickly in bad lighting, so I hope its good enough.

 

Thank You.

post-63555-0-08646200-1375888523_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-90649200-1375888529_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-14323000-1375888540_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-35153400-1375888546_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-16047900-1375888556_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-01462900-1375888562_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-90048100-1375888572_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-83240100-1375888579_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-22105300-1375888586_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-50828400-1375888596_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-25501600-1375888680_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-65059400-1375888686_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-12803000-1375888694_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-59952100-1375888700_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-05159400-1375888707_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-67578300-1375888712_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-06187100-1375888719_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-27047700-1375888726_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-99564200-1375888733_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-37287700-1375888738_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-98224300-1375888758_thumb.jpg

post-63555-0-37515200-1375888763_thumb.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
There were 3 Generations of Christian Friedrich Meisel in Klingenthal (in Saxony, since you ask "Country of origin) between 1770 & 1884. Yours seems to be still in original condition with its unchanged “through neck”, and no the neck shouldn’t be “straight with the body”

I see no reason to disbelieve the very good looking Label.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There were 3 Generations of Christian Friedrich Meisel in Klingenthal (in Saxony, since you ask "Country of origin) between 1770 & 1884. Yours seems to be still in original condition with its unchanged “through neck”, and no the neck shouldn’t be “straight with the body”

I see no reason to disbelieve the very good looking Label.

 

 

Thank You. What I meant with the neck straight with the body was like this picture. http://www.orpheon.org/oldsite/Fotos/Fotos-Instr/Violin_LeidolffJCH3-hals.jpg

 

What would the value be of this instrument, fully, and professionaly repaired?

Link to post
Share on other sites
yes, I fully understood what you meant with “straight with the body”, and no it shouldn’t be. You have a Saxon violin from the early 19th C. with its unchanged original neck, which is entirely typical for the region and period. Some call this “transitional”. Value would rather depend on how well your professional repair person copes with the cracks
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

yes, I fully understood what you meant with “straight with the body”, and no it shouldn’t be. You have a Saxon violin from the early 19th C. with its unchanged original neck, which is entirely typical for the region and period. Some call this “transitional”. Value would rather depend on how well your professional repair person copes with the cracks

 

Please pardon my ignorance, but what should be done to make this violin playable again, specifically referring to the neck? I have very little knowlege of through-necks, and this is the first time I could see one personally. Heel graft, neck lenthening and setting it into an actual neck block? Or a typical neck graft? Or something else?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please pardon my ignorance, but what should be done to make this violin playable again, specifically referring to the neck? I have very little knowlege of through-necks, and this is the first time I could see one personally. Heel graft, neck lenthening and setting it into an actual neck block? Or a typical neck graft? Or something else?

OMG, Kallie, my advice is, if the neck is sound, leave it alone, just fix the cracks :)   You'd ruin the instrument's value doing a neck conversion, IMHO.  If there are any angle issues, meddle with the fingerboard instead.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please pardon my ignorance, but what should be done to make this violin playable again, specifically referring to the neck? I have very little knowlege of through-necks, and this is the first time I could see one personally. Heel graft, neck lenthening and setting it into an actual neck block? Or a typical neck graft? Or something else?

 
Nothing needs to be done to the neck (except perhaps shooting the fingerboard). I would take off the belly and attend to the two ugly cracks, otherwise the usual clean up and work. I can’t tell from photos if the Pegs/Soundpost/Bridge etc. are all right, you will have to trust your violin repair person.  
Link to post
Share on other sites

OMG, Kallie, my advice is, if the neck is sound, leave it alone, just fix the cracks :)   You'd ruin the instrument's value doing a neck conversion, IMHO.  If there are any angle issues, meddle with the fingerboard instead.

 

Thank You Violadamore. Would the playability of a violin like this be the same as with a modern violin, considering the overstand?

 

 

 

 
Nothing needs to be done to the neck (except perhaps shooting the fingerboard). I would take off the belly and attend to the two ugly cracks, otherwise the usual clean up and work. I can’t tell from photos if the Pegs/Soundpost/Bridge etc. are all right, you will have to trust your violin repair person.  

 

 

Lets say, for instance, this violin has the cracks fully repaired, and set up and everything. Is there perhaps a rough estimate on its value that you can give me? It doesnt have to be correct down to the last digit. Just enough to know what Im dealing with here.

 

And yes, the pegs, soundpost, tailpiece, strings and bridge should be changed. Or atleast, corrected.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer your questions in order, emphatically yes, and with the likelihood that Jacob will duck the valuation for reasons of professional ethics, offered in the proper venue, my wild guess is anything between $5K and $50K depending on the venue and the sobriety of the bidders.  I would treat this one very well indeed.

 

Note Well: this violin has nothing whatsoever to do with more modern, mass produced Meisels.

 

Edit-- someone just put a bug in my ear that I was guessing much too high, Try a conservative couple of thousand at auction, and maybe twice that retail.  Still a chunk of change. :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer your questions in order, emphatically yes, and with the likelihood that Jacob will duck the valuation for reasons of professional ethics, offered in the proper venue, my wild guess is anything between $5K and $50K depending on the venue and the sobriety of the bidders.  I would treat this one very well indeed.

 

Note Well: this violin has nothing whatsoever to do with more modern, mass produced Meisels.

 

Edit-- someone just put a bug in my ear that I was guessing much too high, Try a conservative couple of thousand at auction, and maybe twice that retail.  Still a chunk of change. :)

 

Thanx for the info. Much appreciated, as always. :)

 

One more thing, how often do these violins appear? Are they rare? Were alot made? I couldnt find much about this specific maker.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer your questions in order, emphatically yes, and with the likelihood that Jacob will duck the valuation for reasons of professional ethics, offered in the proper venue, my wild guess is anything between $5K and $50K depending on the venue and the sobriety of the bidders.  I would treat this one very well indeed.

 

Congratulations, if you are able to sell a saxon violin from around 1800 for $ 5-50K! I would be a millionaire, if I'd managed to sell one of my Meisels, Meinels, Voigts, Fickers .... for such a fortune.

A realistic retail price for such a violin in a "mint" condition might be 2-3 000 Euro, what is less than $ 4 K, usually they sell for much less, something between Euro 1 and 2 K. And here the varnish of the table seems to be stripped, not to mention the cracks. But possibly the US buyers are able to pay more?

For sentimental or historic reasons the neck shouldn't be changed, this was done in the last century to make such violins suitable for "modern" playing (the bassbar would have to be changed, too), but today there is a demand for violins in original classical or baroque construction and sound. But be aware, that the setup has to be adequate, gut strings and baroque/classical bridge, sondpost and tailpiece. With modern setup and high tension strings it may sound louder, but dumb and dull. And the through-neck construction is not designed to stand the power of modern strings, it will start to move down after a short time, in the worst case the table will get cracks at the block.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 And the through-neck construction is not designed to stand the power of modern strings, it will start to move down after a short time, in the worst case the table will get cracks at the block.

 
A red herring in my view. If anything a through neck is surely structuraly stronger than a “normal” one. Also I would expect a carved bass bar in this instrument, which works perfectly for ”modern” playing. Quite why he should want to change anything for “modern” playing is beyond me anyway, since he has an instrument in authentic Biedermayer condition. Surely it would make more sense to use it for playing that. 
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 
A red herring in my view. If anything a through neck is surely structuraly stronger than a “normal” one. Also I would expect a carved bass bar in this instrument, which works perfectly for ”modern” playing. Quite why he should want to change anything for “modern” playing is beyond me anyway, since he has an instrument in authentic Biedermayer condition. Surely it would make more sense to use it for playing that. 

 

I don't have a need for another disagreement, and maybe we're talking about slightly different formings. A through-neck-construction has surely a stronger neck-"block" connection, because it isn't glued; the problem is, that most of the saxon violins have a very small "block"-part, it's usually only 1,5 cm wide at the table, what is too less to stand the attraction of modern strings. Subsequently the table will be deformed in this area and the neck moves up, or the wood will break - that is my experience, possibly your's are different. Sometimes, but only sometimes, the "block"-part is more wide (3 cm), in this case you are completely right.

The same with the bassbar. Usually those original carved-in bassbars are short and low, in the baroque tradition, and they won't stand the pressure, the table is squeezed down and the sound will get dumb. The other problem is, that a carved bassbar won't prevent breaking along the grain, if the pressure is too big. But if the carved bar is strong, high and heavy, it can be ok and it might take the vibrations better than a glued-in bassbar.

In the consequence we agree, that a historic violin should be treated with respect for the circumstances of the time, when it was built, and it shouldn't  be pressed into a form, which is popular today.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 
A red herring in my view. If anything a through neck is surely structuraly stronger than a “normal” one. Also I would expect a carved bass bar in this instrument, which works perfectly for ”modern” playing. Quite why he should want to change anything for “modern” playing is beyond me anyway, since he has an instrument in authentic Biedermayer condition. Surely it would make more sense to use it for playing that. 

 

 

Since I know now it is still in original condition, I wouldnt change anything to the neck. I just thought it was something that had to be done, like all the grafted violins which has been changed for modern playing. Not something that I wanted to have done.

 

 

My thoughts on value were: resell would be about the amount someone competent would charge to fix the top (including matching varnish...looks to have been stripped), and full set up.  Maybe a little more.   jeff

 

So from this, it wouldnt really be worth selling? Since you would only get the same money back that someone would charge to fix the cracks and repair the varnish on the front?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a Meisel family violin ca. 1800, compare the undisturbed form of the F-holes and the red-brown oil varnish:

 

post-57937-0-04511300-1375967903_thumb.jpgpost-57937-0-56137000-1375967917_thumb.jpgpost-57937-0-66182200-1375967927_thumb.jpgpost-57937-0-46787500-1375967935_thumb.jpg

 

In opposite to my postings above ^_^ I decided to put on a modern set-up, because the bassbar was renewed (very tall and heavy) and it had a modern ebony fingerboard - and I had no good quality gut strings in my box.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.