Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 14 minutes ago, David Beard said: No. Read back. Well then you are wrong, there are many more violins that don't fit your hypothesis than do, and your photos hardly have exact accuracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 One old example proves the idea is not modern. Show one unaltered old Cremona example that is not in the 1:1 or 2:3 adjusted by a part stop structure. Can you show such an example you believe doesn't fit that structure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 While I think the Cremona makers usually show some logical consistency (in ways that have not been part of this discussion), trying to force that on every maker outside of Cremona may be a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 1 hour ago, David Beard said: One old example proves the idea is not modern. Show one unaltered old Cremona example that is not in the 1:1 or 2:3 adjusted by a part stop structure. Can you show such an example you believe doesn't fit that structure? We've already established that Stradivari's necks were way too short for a 2/3 ratio, that goes for most other violins from the 1700s as well, you have the same problem with facts that some Politicians do today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said: While I think the Cremona makers usually show some logical consistency (in ways that have not been part of this discussion), trying to force that on every maker outside of Cremona may be a waste of time. Completely agree. Though much Brescian and Venice work shows similar principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, David Beard said: Completely agree. Though much Brescian and Venice work shows similar principles. When you focus on only Italian violins that have been converted to modern setup, its no surprise that many of them conform to a 2/3 ratio, and since you don't seem to have much experience with unaltered originals its easy for you to assume they were the same, but they weren't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 Can you show or point to one single example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 26 minutes ago, David Beard said: Can you show or point to one single example? The Stradivari fingerboards show a neck length that is around 12cm not 13cm as it would be for 2/3 ration, we also have preserved original Stradivari necks that were cut off in order to add new longer necks and a neck scroll graft, what do those neck remains tell us about how long Stradivaris necks were and since we have examples of his fingerboards does that give us any idea of what the nut position might have been like on an original Strad, and we have the Medici?? viola in almost original condition, obviously way shorter neck than 2/3 ratio, where is the nut position on that and what is the evidence it is original. You've only come up with one example of a maker using something close to 2/3 ration and that is the original Stainers, but that is only because the nut is moved 8mm north which means the neck itself is 8mm shorter than a modern neck with the modern nut placement, the original Stainer's shortness of the neck was in common with Stradivari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Kasprzyk Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 21 hours ago, David Beard said: Here is the Stainer from NMM. It appears he didn't apply this ratio exactly from the end of the plates, but from where the fingerboard attaches. A top view doesn't show the actual neck length if the neck angle is tilted downward.A top view is only correct when the neck goes straight out. The attached sketch shows three different length necks (NA, NB, NC) all having the same apparent 2/3 neck ratio when viewed from above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mille regardz Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said: A top view doesn't show the actual neck length if the neck angle is tilted downward.A top view is only correct when the neck goes straight out. True, but for (for instance) a neck angle of 5° and a neck length of 130 mm, the difference is only 0.5 mm, which seems within the error margin of taking measurements from photos anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 2 hours ago, David Beard said: adjusted by a part stop structure. That right there is an indication that your system doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said: That right there is an indication that your system doesn't work. No. That is the system. 1:1 - 1/2 gives 1:2 1:1 - 1/3 gives 2:3 1:1 with adjustment was standard long ago. 2:3 became an alternate standard that can further be adjusted starting with Brescian work in early 1500s. 2:3 - 1/2. Seen in 1650 Stainer tenor 2:3 + 1/10 gives the 7:10 cello stop Etc. (Marty, the system applies in plane. Neck anglings were later further developments) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: The Stradivari fingerboards show a neck length that is around 12cm not 13cm as it would be for 2/3 ration, we also have preserved original Stradivari necks that were cut off in order to add new longer necks and a neck scroll graft, what do those neck remains tell us about how long Stradivaris necks were and since we have examples of his fingerboards does that give us any idea of what the nut position might have been like on an original Strad, and we have the Medici?? viola in almost original condition, obviously way shorter neck than 2/3 ratio, where is the nut position on that and what is the evidence it is original. You've only come up with one example of a maker using something close to 2/3 ration and that is the original Stainers, but that is only because the nut is moved 8mm north which means the neck itself is 8mm shorter than a modern neck with the modern nut placement, the original Stainer's shortness of the neck was in common with Stradivari I am not proposing a system of just 2:3. The Stainer example shows that Stainer at least sometimes used 2:3 for violins. But the Lady Blunt provides a clear case of Strad using 2:3 reduced by a 1/4 part on a violin. I am asserting that all available evidence shows these old makers working within the '1:1 and 2:3 with adjustments by a simple part ' system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 40 minutes ago, David Beard said: I am not proposing a system of just 2:3. The Stainer example shows that Stainer at least sometimes used 2:3 for violins. But the Lady Blunt provides a clear case of Strad using 2:3 reduced by a 1/4 part on a violin. I am asserting that all available evidence shows these old makers working within the '1:1 and 2:3 with adjustments by a simple part ' system. So basically you're proposing a lot of nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francoisdenis Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 41 minutes ago, David Beard said: I am not proposing a system of just 2:3. The Stainer example shows that Stainer at least sometimes used 2:3 for violins. But the Lady Blunt provides a clear case of Strad using 2:3 reduced by a 1/4 part on a violin. I am asserting that all available evidence shows these old makers working within the '1:1 and 2:3 with adjustments by a simple part ' system. The ratio Stop/neck (from "Shapes of baroque " william Monical) for the violins -small violins , pochettes and quintons 2:3 =0,666 seems to be the most commun ratio there.... stop neck ratio small violin J/A Gagliano monical p38 128 124,5 0,973 quinton Nicholas Chappuy 1740 p40 192 132 0,688 pochette Théodorus Cuypers,The Hague1783 p42 75 140 1,867 Italie du Nord (similar to Gaspar Borbon)?? 1686 p45 142 138 0,972 Practice violin Nicolaus Gagliano 1716 p46 195 120,5 0,618 violon Henrik Jacobs 1703 p50 192 127 0,661 violon Claude F Vuillaume p52 184 129,5 0,704 violon henry Jay 1760 p54 197 130 0,660 violon Joseph Rösch Mit.1759 p56 195 130 0,667 violin JG Thir , Vienna 1754 p58 194 128 0,660 violin Tomas Balestrieri Mantua 1777 p60 194 129 0,665 violin Aloysius Stangel , Mit 1793 p62 187,5 125 0,667 violin Joham Gottfried Hamm 1796 p64 193,5 126,5 0,654 violin Andreas H Hjorth Copenhagen 1819 p66 194 127,5 0,657 violin joseph II Klotz Mitt, 1821p68 197 131 0,665 violin C. Corsby 1852 p70 197 128 0,650 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 Actually it looks like some are 2/3 some are not, that would go in line with what is said early on in this thread, neck lengths were not standardized in the baroque, and when the neck measurement is 13cm it has to do with the nut position being north of the modern position, the neck itself is still shorter, in pretty much all these cases And you have to figure, if modern restorers a fitting an original neck instrument, if they have control over the nut thickness and fingerboard position, there is pressure to make it come out as close to 13cm as possible given the modern standard, so that is no proof that all of these ones measuring 13cm were originally the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francoisdenis Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Actually it looks like some are 2/3 some are not, that would go in line with what is said early on in this thread, neck lengths were not standardized in the baroque, and when the neck measurement is 13cm it has to do with the nut position being north of the modern position, the neck itself is still shorter, in pretty much all these cases If it's to say that, by the past, less standards exited than we are used too - I think that we will all agree; nevertheless.... a lot of 2:3 there. Actually the true question is not which ratio but what could have been the motivation to set a short or a long neck on a violin. If it is not an ergonomic consideration, could that be the nature of the string or a specific order ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Law Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, francoisdenis said: If it's to say that, by the past, less standards exited than we are used too - I think that we will all agree; nevertheless.... a lot of 2:3 there. Actually the true question is not which ratio but what could have been the motivation to set a short or a long neck on a violin. If it is not an ergonomic consideration, could that be the nature of the string or a specific order ? I join on p.11 so completely out of context. After an instrument is made (i.e. stop length fixed), a different ratio could happen just because the user wants a specific string length, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 43 minutes ago, francoisdenis said: The ratio Stop/neck (from "Shapes of baroque " william Monical) for the violins -small violins , pochettes and quintons 2:3 =0,666 seems to be the most commun ratio there.... stop neck ratio small violin J/A Gagliano monical p38 128 124,5 0,973 quinton Nicholas Chappuy 1740 p40 192 132 0,688 pochette Théodorus Cuypers,The Hague1783 p42 75 140 1,867 Italie du Nord (similar to Gaspar Borbon)?? 1686 p45 142 138 0,972 Practice violin Nicolaus Gagliano 1716 p46 195 120,5 0,618 violon Henrik Jacobs 1703 p50 192 127 0,661 violon Claude F Vuillaume p52 184 129,5 0,704 violon henry Jay 1760 p54 197 130 0,660 violon Joseph Rösch Mit.1759 p56 195 130 0,667 violin JG Thir , Vienna 1754 p58 194 128 0,660 violin Tomas Balestrieri Mantua 1777 p60 194 129 0,665 violin Aloysius Stangel , Mit 1793 p62 187,5 125 0,667 violin Joham Gottfried Hamm 1796 p64 193,5 126,5 0,654 violin Andreas H Hjorth Copenhagen 1819 p66 194 127,5 0,657 violin joseph II Klotz Mitt, 1821p68 197 131 0,665 violin C. Corsby 1852 p70 197 128 0,650 Are you sure these instruments were all listed as having their original necks?, it looks suspiciously like a collection of measurements from modernized violins And from the transitional Saxon instruments I have collected, not a single one had a long enough neck to have a 2/3 ratio, so I hardly consider this sample typical, in fact some of them are in the modern neck time period so obviously you would expect a more modern neck ratio. the one early Italian example is 12 cm which is similar to Stradivari and many of the Saxon instruments I have worked on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Beard Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 20 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Actually it looks like some are 2/3 some are not, that would go in line with what is said early on in this thread, neck lengths were not standardized in the baroque, and when the neck measurement is 13cm it has to do with the nut position being north of the modern position, the neck itself is still shorter, in pretty much all these cases And you have to figure, if modern restorers a fitting an original neck instrument, if they have control over the nut thickness and fingerboard position, there is pressure to make it come out as close to 13cm as possible given the modern standard, so that is no proof that all of these ones measuring 13cm were originally the same Right. The ones that aren't are as I've described. Differening by a simple partnof the unit. Get used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 1 minute ago, David Beard said: Right. The ones that aren't are as I've described. Differening by a simple partnof the unit. Get used to it. Complete rubbish, a neck measurement of 125 or 127 does not fit into your scheme, its just plain not 2/3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 Are Strad o Various and Sospiri the same cat? Anyone get IP addresses? Anyway, I hate to say it but the old Saxons you're working on aren't as interesting or compelling wrt this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Norfleet Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said: Are Strad o Various and Sospiri the same cat? If so, I look forward to them arguing with each other. That said, they might not really know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 13 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said: Are Strad o Various and Sospiri the same cat? Anyone get IP addresses? Anyway, I hate to say it but the old Saxons you're working on aren't as interesting or compelling wrt this discussion. Yes I'm sure you're too busy working on Stradivaris and Stainers, I consider myself fortunate to work on any original neck instruments, and my customers appreciate it too, maybe you should ask Sospori how many instruments he has restored, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter K-G Posted July 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 27 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: Complete rubbish, a neck measurement of 125 or 127 does not fit into your scheme, its just plain not 2/3 What's rubbish, is to not recognize that 130/195 = 2/3 and that is what makers aim for. Sometimes you get the neck +/- up to 2 mm. Because it is not easy to get every parameter right. You can compensate with a wider or narrower nut, or just leave it and adjust at the bridge or not. As I wrote deviations are not the answer to look for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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