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redbrown

Does this look like a Hill bow?

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This weekend I picked up this bow. There is a stamp of W.E Hill & Sons but it's very hard to see the W.E. The E is more noticeable when turned under the right light.

 

The fittings are all sterling and a #2 under the hair. Also an F stamp on the stick as well as the frog...no date I can see.Looks like the mortice on the stick had repairs on the one side but other than that it's not bad shape. The silver wrap looks old but the leather looks new.

 

The stamps in the silver are odd. I don't know why they do that but I was told it's hallmarked as sterling silver fittings.

 

It could be a copy so I just thought I'd see what you guy's think. The photo's are not the best...sorry about that and thank you for your time.

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Not even close.

As far as I can see,the ebay seller has been selling numerous stamped bow, mostly re-mounted with silver, at least for the tip, and can't remember seeing one actually by the maker whose stamp was on the shaft. no difference here. 

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Thank you Ratcliffiddles, did the hill shop even use brass screws to hold the slider to the frog like this? Another question I would like to ask if I may...the silver tip on hill bows usually have an ebony liner between the head, correct? Or is that depending on the maker.

Thanks again for your expertise.

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You didn`t buy it from that ridiculous guy on ebay did you? Him who gets any old bow and `upgades` it with silver fittings and often gemstones. He also is under the assumption that every bit of silver must be hallmarked or its illegal!!

In the Uk the reason why bows arent hallmarked is that to require a hallmark each individual piece of silver has to be over 7.78 gms ,seeing as no individual silver part of a bow is over that weight then hallmarking is not required.

Besides that i havent seen any bows from anywhere apart from this seller ,that have hallmarks.

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Yes I bought it from that dude, it's also quite heavy, about 65g. I paid 350us I guess, I got taken. It plays nice, although I didn't really expect it to be a real hill bow but thought I would get your professional opinion. Tks for taking the time for me.

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Yes I bought it from that dude, it's also quite heavy, about 65g. I paid 350us I guess, I got taken. It plays nice, although I didn't really expect it to be a real hill bow but thought I would get your professional opinion. Tks for taking the time for me.

Redbrown, You seem to be quite anxious to be taken. The last time it was a fake violin from a known crook in New Jersey.

Why don't you stop wasting your money and continuing to encourage Ebay cheaters?

It's people like you ,thinking that they are getting something for nothing that keep the crooks in business.

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Redbrown, for what you spend, several here have genuine, authentic rubbish for sale.  Encourage us.instead :lol:

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Sorry guys,

Hey, thanks but no thanks. I don't let the crooks get away. The last one I challenged them through eBay and won my case...the guy wasn't happy but taught him a lesson none the less. If the eBay sellers think they can get away with selling the way they are now, well... I'll change that for them, and have a lot of fun doing it. It's a matter of morals, can you live with yourself knowing you just ripped off someone again? If everyone was to fight these guys, it won't take long for eBay/Paypal to nail them to the wall...lol.

The guy selling the Rocca violins, there is one one eBay right now...check it out! I've done my homework, building my case and soon he will find out too. I bought one last year from him and he's still putting that same label in his so called "Rocca" violins. He claims he is doing nothing wrong but I see it differently. You guys can laugh and contradict me all you want but I'm learning slowly and plan to take the crooks down one by one. I can tell you Paypal is on our side...it just takes us to do something about it. There are plenty of good sellers who don't hide things but others, like the listing for a Roth violin I purchased about 2mths ago. The photos were perfect and his strong determination to lead all 64 bidders to believe the violin is in excellent condition caused me to win the auction. When I received it there were 2 sound post cracks. Yes, about an 8" crack on the back directly over the SP. A very poor surface mount patch under the SP to top it all off. There was also a top 1" long SP crack, unrepaired. The guy tells me he did not see them and nothing he can do about it. So you see, it's the way he took the photos and fooled everyone. I did not let him get away with it, I do believe he will think twice about next time. I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the picture.

I'm not a winer, nor a complainer and work way to hard for my $ to let anyone take advantage of me. Sometimes I need to learn the hard way, but one way or another...I will learn and with eBay being fairly new to me and seeing how crooked people are...well, it just ticks me off knowing what some are getting away with.

So, without stepping on any one of your toes, I'll just hope...for better times.

Again, thanks for all your help and understanding with me fighting the crooks!

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Again, thanks for all your help and understanding with me fighting the crooks!

 

 

Holy obsession, Batman!!  Sounds like you have quite a career planned.  At least you seem to be doing something instead of buzzing around ineffectually........ :lol: Sincere best wishes :)

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This weekend I picked up this bow. There is a stamp of W.E Hill & Sons but it's very hard to see the W.E. The E is more noticeable when turned under the right light.

 

The fittings are all sterling and a #2 under the hair. Also an F stamp on the stick as well as the frog...no date I can see.Looks like the mortice on the stick had repairs on the one side but other than that it's not bad shape. The silver wrap looks old but the leather looks new.

 

The stamps in the silver are odd. I don't know why they do that but I was told it's hallmarked as sterling silver fittings.

 

It could be a copy so I just thought I'd see what you guy's think. The photo's are not the best...sorry about that and thank you for your time.

 

I don't think the guy you bought this from is a crook. Just a little odd, maybe.

 

I bought a bow from him for the pleasure of seeing those tiny assay marks. He really went to the trouble of having it made and the small bow parts assayed and stamped. If you look under a lens, those marks are perfectly formed and remarkable in their own right (although I doubt they add to the value of the bow).

 

I have the impression he finds some quite good sticks and dresses them up for resale. At the end of the day, you got an OK player with real silver fittings for $350 so not a bad deal.

 

Glenn

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Thanks Glenn, I agree. I'm not at all sorry I bought this bow. I realize no one is going to sell a Hill bow for $350 but, it seems to be very nice. It's a bit on the heavy side but it has new hair and I'm really beginning to like the feel. It's just about 8g heavier than my other bow so... it's a real different player. This bow is very fine, dense and is straight so I'm happy. My luthier wanted $230 to rehair my existing bow and then said it was not worth it.

I did look under a lens at these stamps...perfect. Imagine the heat consentrated in that small area to achieve this. When I got the bow, all the silver was a blue/black (not cleaned) but it just wiped right off to a gleaming sterling silver.

Thank you all:)

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I don't think the guy you bought this from is a crook. Just a little odd, maybe.

 

 

I have the impression he finds some quite good sticks and dresses them up for resale. 

Glenn

 

Yes, and isn't he lucky to find all these old bows with stamps like Hill, Fetique, PRS etc, all spurious. And the "Hill" bow  even has a number on the silver tip.  Amazing! oh well... I suppose the number was there on the silver before fitting it, otherwise that would be wrong. 

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This might be slightly off-topic, but I would like to tell a short anecdote from my professional life, in my side job as a certified court violin expert.

 

I am occasionally required by the court to appraise instruments for probate. The last time I was called out, it was for a “contested” inheritance, involving (said the Notary on the phone) “Amati, Widhalm, Klotz etc.” violins. The late gentlemans son claimed everything was now his inheritance, and the late “collectors” girl-freind claimed that she had been given all the instruments as he was still alive.

 

I drove to the house of the dececed at the agreed time and date, and was slightly early, since I had over-estimated how long it would take to drive there. The various “parties” came, one by one, accompanied by their solicitors, and we all waited on the pavement until the notary arrived with the key to the house.

 

Once inside, I looked through the bows first, 22 of them. I gave each one a number, and took notes (as I am obliged too). From the 22 bows, there was one (yes ONE) that I would have considered worth re-hairing, a Hoyer. I then looked at each instrument, giving them numbers, and taking notes, with everbodys avaricious eyes burning a hole in the back of my neck. From 21 violins, 3 were of the “Dutzendarbeit” variety, and could have been renovated as school violins, should one have nothing better to do, the rest beggar coment. At this point, I stood up, and asked if the ladies and gentlemen would really like me to write an appraisal, and pointed out that I would have to charge for it. As an alternative, I suggested they could give me a 100 Euro note to cover my time and travelling expenses, shove the whole lot in the skip, and agree to forget it.

 

So, any of you ebay-lifers, who can possibly glean a glimps of their legacy from my anecdote, please leave a will. :mellow:

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This might be slightly off-topic,

 

No, it isn't.

As always, one of the most valuable parts of this board are your anecdotes, Jacob, because they are enlightening the real world of violins – thank you very much for this!

But you’re missing (or hiding) the punch of this story, which is in my understanding, that we are reading the perfect Ebay seller’s tale: An inheritance, hardly contested, from an old, life-long collector (owning many reference books, too?), including instruments bearing rare names – an estimator, who wants the inheritors to smash them into a skip (why? Because he is planning to take them out by night for his own gain), an austrian notary (schlampert), who doesn’t care about an 100-Euro fee without paying the income taxes – this auctions will end up with many 10 K results.

:D:blink::rolleyes:

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                      I met that ebay seller who lives quite close by wandering around the Ecole de la Lutherie in Mirecourt with my husband (a cellist) a few years ago having already seen his bows on his fireplace on ebay, (as have most people who ever look at ebay). A quick phone call when I got home assured me that he is a registered sponsor at London Goldsmith's Hall. He looked like he preferred good living to prison food to me and as for legality, he said "the hallmarks look cool, sell well" and added that any idiot who wants to dispute his metal quality will end up swiftly out of the ebay bi*ch zone and in a courtroom facing the Goldsmith's legal team before Jack Robinson can be mentioned. While smiling he was very definitely not joking. It turned out he used the same rehairer I had used for 15 years at Colchester Strings. Tried and trusted.

                 Very knowledgable regarding bows, the seller told me he never ever lets it lie when networking with string players. He follows every lead when it comes to buying old used bows. He took me us to his car in the car park and the boot of his old racing green Jag with what he said was 160 thousand on the clock just from searching for bows. The boot was chock full of old pernumbucco bows  I asked him about prices. He said he was happy with his niche market high turnover small profit and will never compete, he knew Toft and Horner and would not dream of trying to scrabble about trying to make a mere two or three hundred quid profit with months or years of waiting, on a three thousand pound liability. He said every time the luthier hairs a bow he stands to make 100% loss (always done at your liability)  from the damage during hairing or the moment the bow is wound to tension. Why would he bother. He just wanted to find good bows in real stable chocolate brown, or red/orange dye wood pernumbucco and get them working. And should a few real authentic bows slip through his fingers then good,who cares. He claims he was a "balance missionary" and that so much smoke and mirrors and BS is spouted about good balance.

                    He asked me to hold out my hand and put it next to his. He picked out the first bow he saw and said something to the effect of  "Now tell me how in Gods name the main balance of the bow is not entirely dependent on two things, the size and shape of the hand holding it and the weight of the shaft and mainly tip/head weight." He explained he had sold a bow to a Phd Physics, an amateur violinist, who upon discussion had totally agreed with him. He said  " Good bit of weight at either end,that is what Retford taught that is what Hill believed and that is what all the French makers believed too. The French simply mainly sold unfinished bows, just like every damned soft pearwood fingerboard that was ever pasted onto a really great quality, fine tone wood table and back in this town (Mirecourt), with a factory label glued inside often made by a factory worker, who would later often become famous."

               "Rocco Schmoko" like in the earlier post in this stream is really "Mirecourt Firecourt".

 

                             He explained " Just remember that if Henley's Dictionary were set out as a century by century volumes it would be a series of thin books and nowhere near as intimidating. " There were lots of metal tipped bows in that boot and an awful lot with damaged or no tip face at all. Like bow hair, or clutches and tyres on a car, bow tips always need replacing. Bows with good condition ivory tips ate too deeply into his very marginal profits.  Work that out for yourself. So he tip refits quality Pirrelli not crappy remoulds! Great.

                                  Most of the metal in that boot was clearly silver or gold and when he took out his wallet and gave me his card he had a wadge of euros which looked like a book poised ready to grab a bow or a bundle. He said he paid between £900 and £1500 for ten good restorable bows He claimed there were historically a million "made after" bows stamped and fashioned every decade for home and export in that town and another million each made in both Markneukirchen and Mittenwald Germany with half a million each  made by local luthiers for Prague and Vienna and especially for St Petersburg and Moscow with a violinist with lightning fingers at every single goddam wedding". He assured me that he knew the experts well enough to know that like the splinters of the cross in French and Spanish churches, if you put all the original bows "By" makers all together there would be a thousand crosses not just one. He cited Bein and Fushi, and Biddulph and their famous law suit in Chicago.....You think the guys at the top are all hoinest? Not always! or so say the U.S high courts. Bein and Fushi also had to pay out millions out of court when dendocrenology and electron microscopes were invented. Tests too expensive for your average £3k bow. Be careful what you buy. And only buy what you like ". He talks quickly and does not mince his words or stammer. 20% of value charged for an authenticity certificate....get bl++dy well lost.

                   That ebay sellers unbelievably comprehensive library is permanently on display in his eshop as previously mentioned and I understand he only sells the books he has at least two copies of.  He sells precious metal bows in good wood, at great prices If you tried to sell him an original he would laugh and probably say "are you absolutely sure! Can you show me the purchase receipt please?" Too many cooks or was it Rooks... You work it out.

                     There are people who claim expertise and then there are people who refuse the 'expert' label, with outstanding library resources to do academic referencing from (His card says Bmus(Hons). People- and there are plenty- who weedle their way into a paycheck from a courtroom, who claim expertise, from sniffing muttering and rolling their eyeballs, yet never once citing book and page number  or photo references, now they are the magicians. I for one, like that seller, am convinced only, that I do not believe in magic.

                          If your bow like mine has that sellers hallmarks on, it is a bow he liked enough first to buy and then sell to you, while not risking his reputation at a price which says he will never ever, get to court for suggesting it to be worth a Royal mint. That is what history will say about him after a fashion. That is what I advise you to believe and that is all he ever claims.

                            While I have seen some trying to sell his bows on as original artifacts, he stays clear of trouble by nearly always marking them "Stamped" not "By" just like the auction houses and leaving it up to us to decide their value or their lineage. I have two of his bows, one stamped "Lamy" in orange wood which is not burned with nitric acid and another dark varnished stamped "Gand  Bernadel" both fully finished with metal tips, the Gand bow already had the tip on it on the Lamy a broken ivory tip face which he restored in silver. He showed me a photo of an old Lamy in a £400 value Retford book with a silver metal tip and that was that. Enough said,  they play beautifully, I went to his workshop and chose them un-haired from the pile of work he had on and he showed me photos of very similar bows in the library. He knows those books instantly down to page numbers and found pictures like the two bows I chose in old copies of Strad and ageing auction catalogs in a matter of seconds. I have an original 1968 By "W.E. Hill and SONS" bow which my college professor bought direct from Hill in Bond St with the till receipt provided and I rarely use it, ie concerts and final practice only.  The balance of the other bows is close enough for me to not reel like I am in shock from changing bows. I use them when I teach and have sold one other I bought from him to a pupil for a small yet comfortable profit. Surely if all you ask upon resale is a little more than you paid, say 30% for each change of hands, nothing untoward or underhand can be later implied.

                                I, like 10% of the UK population have a Nickel contact allergy dermatitis acquired simply and solely from years of handling green oxide on cheap cr*p bows and seemingly no other reason than Nickel metal build up in my system according to my G.P. I need contact with Cupro- Nickel oxide like I need a really bad rash.....  

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Godd+++mit $230 for a rehair you would be cheaper and better of sending it to me in the UK at that price. My rehair guy is Merton College qualified luthier with 25yrs experience and charges £30 ie around $45. You guys are just phenomenal. I think ya'll know my address by now you all seem to have bought stuff from me. All the pros use my bows. They keep their £3500 Hill and £7k Ouchards for solo work and even play my bows in orchestra. I was at the Royal Albert Hall a few weeks ago and was chatting to the leader and asked whatya playin today? He said one of yours of course. I said how comes? Prestigeous big money event like this I thought you would have pulled out the top notch gear.....Nah he said...A ton and a half of dry ice, laser light cutting in to my varnish and the multiple shock waves from those fr**kin cannons in the bl++dy 1812, I left the Matt the Gorrilla (Mateo Goffrilla) and my "PeckerT" (Peccatte) at home and brought your stuff along. If say I was at the Wigmore doing solo then they would get the good stuff. This lot are weekend punters not a discerning audience, I give them what they want, not way more than they need. You know I actually play in tune and in time simultaneously, which always astounds them!! 

                                 I personally know, ie not just heresay down the grapevine line, I have actually seen the physical damage caused, by four different people who have sat on ie not just dropped or general attrition and broken either Cremona violins or fine 5k+ French bows. They actually mistook them for chairs. They are all good people smart articulate and versatile players, They are the nicest cleverest most darling idiots I have ever met. Like me holding my purchase book as close to my open fire flame as possible just to see how close I can get to those licking flames. Wise up and dumb down people, drink your good coffee yourself and serve the cheap stuff to visitors. Vastly Increase your percentage of investment success by diminishing your general law of usage. That is my opinion. That what my leader does and I bow low to his ideas.  And I get his low end business. And if he breaks two of my $3-500 bows every ten years, then he just doesn't care, he sends the damage bill to the Tax man and just thanks God on high himself it was not his best bow, 745mm flexible pension and his gold fitted children's inheritance. Amen

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