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Sealing with diluted hide glue


tango

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Hi all
 
I have two violins to varnish at this time (my second and third).
 
Is there something wrong if I seal the wood with hide glue diluted with water (agua de cola)? I know this is a common way with some luthiers.  Any problem with this?
 
Would make also the Sacconi receip of egg white, arabic gum, sugar etc., but diluted hide glue is more easy and faster.
 
Thanks
Tango
 
 

 

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I agree, and after reading the long thread about darkening the wood, I'm pretty convinced that most of the cremonese must have a moister resistant grounding, otherwise the wood would be mostly gray and ugly and with no grounding left, where the varnish is worn out.

 

My opinion is that the sealer/ground should be moister resistant. I have a problem with violin #4 where the varnish has worn down and sealing/grounding is exposed. Sweat from my hand and neck has completeley dissolved the grounding layers leaving wood open. This was sealed with gelatine (water soluble)

 

Some wise guys here have suggested casein and lime. That's what I'm going to do next.

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Hi Nicolàs

 

The only gelatin I know is the edible one. I gess this may be different.

 

One posible sealer I read is the 4-1 shellac-alcohol mentined by Michael Darnton in a PDF I was reading a time ago on Internet.

What do you think

 

Regards 

Tango

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I thought preparing Sacconi's recipe for Venice Bianca was very simple and went on easily on my first violin. Plan to use it again on violin #2 and my first viola.

Let the beat up egg whites sit for at least and hour to get all the albumen out of the meringue. I used gum Arabic solution I bought at the art supply store. Tried mixing some from scratch and it was a disaster.

Two or three coats of Vernice adds some stiffness to the plates and a good surface for the ground varnish coat.

Just my inexperienced opinion.

Joe

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Hi Nicolàs

One posible sealer I read is the 4-1 shellac-alcohol mentined by Michael Darnton in a PDF I was reading a time ago on Internet.

What do you think

 

Regards 

Tango

 

I used that on mine and it worked well. 

 

There is a picture on another thread of a glue 'ghost'  an area where there is some glue and it obscures the wood grain.   Here is a link to it.  See the glue area in the picture?   Personally I would not use that as the first thing on the wood. 

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328546-darkening-the-violin-wood/page-11

 

Here's another one showing a glue stain on a Strad

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/323149-glue-stains-on-strads-and-old-cremonese/

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Hi Nicolàs

 

The only gelatin I know is the edible one. I gess this may be different.

 

One posible sealer I read is the 4-1 shellac-alcohol mentined by Michael Darnton in a PDF I was reading a time ago on Internet.

What do you think

 

Regards 

Tango

the edible gelatine is the same you can use to seal wood (after all gelatine is a very direct colorless relative of hide glue). So if you want to try, you can go for it (I used it once, diluted at about 2% in warm water and brush).

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Don't forget glair, probably the most used sealant in history. Or you can try an emulsion of glair + a few drops of linseed, or 80% egg yolk and 20%linseed. You have plenty of choice, it's up to you choosing the best color and the best flexibility.

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I use 3% diluted technical gelatine. Easy to make and easy to apply. Does not affect wood beauty and works great under my ground (diluted shellac)

attachicon.gifIMG_00019.JPG

 

Yes, gelatine works perfectly as a sealer. It homogenizes wood capillarity and makes it possible for even staining. But it is water soluble and it's easy washed away. I don't know if that's a problem or not, but wood gets gray and ugly if the varnish is worn away.

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Thanks all

 

I made some test  (the shellac used is a 1shellac-4 alcohol)

 

 

  1. Hide glue + 2 coats shellac with turmeric and result well with a nice yellow for a ground. More than two coats of shellac-turmeric the yellow became very strong.
  2. The same as point 1 and add two coats of shellac colored with a sanded wood of a local tree called "quebracho". The brown warm achieved is rey nice.
  3. Shellac-turmeric without hide glue as a sealer. This test was made on a rib and a few of shellac traspass the wood. ¿Is this very important in a little quantity? I saw photos of cremoneses violins with this stain spots.

After point 2, I guess, I would apply  oil varnish becouse the shellac used was an unwaxed shellac. First colored an finaly transparent. Thus, the coating would end

(THE END) :blink:

Thats all folks

Tango

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Hi John

 

"hi, if you're using shellac anyway, why not just seal with clear shellac?"

 

I take advantage of the application of shellac to give the ground.

 

Applying shellac without a sealer I am afraid of that shellac, traspssing the wood through the other side of the ribs, will "turn off" the sound of the violin.

 

Tango

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I think it is better to think of gelatine or glue as a size rather than a sealer. Using it as a size you can control the penetration of a sealer or ground coat or a stain. It is very efficient in very dilute form. It should not really form a visually perceptable layer in itself more just a very subtle physical barrier to control subsequent layers that will have a visual effect. i.e. once a glue size is applied and dry the wood should look no different. 

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I tend to agree. This is like the man who wears suspenders with a pants belt. However, if this works, so be it.

 

Mike

 Mike

I beg your pardon, don´t understand. Are you saying that is not necessary apply a sealer if before apply shellac?

Tango

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 Mike

I beg your pardon, don´t understand. Are you saying that is not necessary apply a sealer if before apply shellac?

Tango

In my short experience I have found that if you apply diluted shellac directly to the wood with no sealer, the shellac tends to penetrate the wood more than I like, and many more coats are needed. With gelatine as a sealer I only need 10 to 12 coats of 1:4 shellac.

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 Mike

I beg your pardon, don´t understand. Are you saying that is not necessary apply a sealer if before apply shellac?

Tango

Shellac is used as a sealer by some makers, but not very often as a varnish. So you seal with shellac and then apply your varnish.

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Anyone who can beat this varnishing process (Violin #2, it had to be ready because it was a christmas gift, 5 days before christmas)

The whole varnishing process took 2 hours.

Staining/Sealing:

Strong Coffee / Egg white + little honey and water, quickly brushed on with a spong and dried with a hair drier.

Varnish:

Redbrown Hammerl Spirit varnish mixed with red and black pigments, sprayed on with 10 bar of pressure from a food processing machine from ~1 m distance (3 layers)

Polished with parafin oil and spirit

The varnish is still in perfect condition. Stupid but got lucky it worked out fine.

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I guess another way occurs while smoothing the surface after scraping using pumice. This fills the wood pores differentially so that when varnishing the top it shows the winter and summer bundles a little better. I varnish after this, and use pumice and water to gently remove stuff between coats. That is what I say, but usually by the second coat "i'll finish it later syndrome " happens.  fred

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