Kallie Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Hi, I was browsing ebay for violins, and I came upon this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUTHENTIC-OLD-FRENCH-EXPERIMENTAL-VIOLIN-GUSTAVE-TARLE-/161047958256?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257f34d2f0 What is that metal pin under the bridge foot for? It says the violin is experimental, but what is the use of that? Anyone have some insight on this? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacPherson Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 Kallie, I think the answer lies in this snippet from the description...and a lever system that are going through the table under a foot of the bridge. (sorry about the boldface...It came along when I copied and pasted) I would guess that the bridge sits on one end of the lever, and the other end is supported by the soundpost. It's probably one of those inventions that works "after a fashion", but is a lot of trouble and unlikely to revolutionize the craft. It's a shame the vender wants to start the bidding so high. I'd sort of like to mess with it. Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baroquecello Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 There is a trick for using smaller instruments as a viola and having a viola sound by attaching the sound post directly to the bridge through a hole in the top. This looks very much like it, but it could ofcourse be something totally different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 It's the "hole in the heart" technique. It was discussed sometimes here. I think it is something dating from early 1920, maybe in nordic countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallie Posted June 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 There is a trick for using smaller instruments as a viola and having a viola sound by attaching the sound post directly to the bridge through a hole in the top. This looks very much like it, but it could ofcourse be something totally different. I was actually wondering about that today. If it was possible to make a violin sound more like a viola with some trick while making it etc. It's the "hole in the heart" technique. It was discussed sometimes here. I think it is something dating from early 1920, maybe in nordic countries? I found this on the "Hole of the heart" technique: "there is something that’s been dubbed a “hole-in-the-heart” operation. You’d have to get your local violinmaker/luthier to do this for you. They probably won’t be willing to do it to higher quality instruments. It’s kind of irreversable. The idea is to bypass the belly of the instrument alltogether, by drilling a hole under the treble side of the bridge, and attaching the sound post directly to the treble foot of the bridge, thus allowing the sound waves to travel from string to bridge to soundpost to the back of the instrument, instead of from string —>Bridge—>Belly—>Back." - Saw this in a topic where someone asked how to convert a violin to a viola. Does anyone perhaps know how successful this is? How big of a difference it will make to a violin sound? Will the difference be worth the trouble? (This is, ofcourse, if you want a violin to sound more like a viola) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go_oa Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 I made my 1970's Romanian viola into a 'Hole in the Heart'. At the same time I thinned the plates a lot. There was a good improvement, but not spectacular. The idea, at least my idea, is that the top plate is no longer forced to have a node at the sound post, and thus there is the possibility of vibration modes at lower frequencies, not otherwise available. I cannot claim any demonstration of this. A better craftsman might do better. The set-up with the right foot of the bridge attached to a long post is fragile! A broken 'A' string can cause real problems. Getting the whole thing balanced so that the stick passes through the hole without touching can be a pain. And of course, there is no sound post to adjust. Or at least the rules for setting it up are unknown. I do not know what the reference to a lever in the eBay ad is about. 'Hole in the Heart' is just a simple extension of the treble foot of the bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacPherson Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 The "hole in the heart" thing makes sense, and has plenty of historical precedent, but I don't think it fully explains what is going on with the instrument in question. There is a metal pin (or something) visible in the picture. This would not be necessary if the sound post just went through the plate and served as a perch for the bridge foot. What is it? The person who has access to the instrument writes of a "lever system". It's hard to imagine using the word "lever" in the context of a "hole in the heart" construction. What is he seeing? Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 Maybe for some reason the person who did that thought that a hollow soundpost wrapped around a metal rod would give something more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacPherson Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 I wrote this to the vender last night...... "I am having trouble understanding what is going on with the sound post, and the "lever" you mentioned in your description.Would it be possible to see a picture that sheds more light on this?" ...and I got this response this morning. "Sorry, but it has inside the violin, impossible for a pics, only visible to the endoscope. There are drawings of the process on the web , but !!!!! " So....That does not seem like a very useful response from a person who is trying to sell something unusual. I am through trying to get more information from him. Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 I'm guessing from the description and photo that there is a soundpost in about the normal spot, but doesn't touch the top, only the middle of a lever. The pin is at one end of the lever, and the other end of the lever might rest on the top somewhere. Just a guess. The hole-in-the-heart is something I tried out on a VSO, and it does strengthen the lower frequencies significantly, as well as lowering their frequency. However, since the trebel foot doesn't contact the top, the high frequency response suffers mightily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 I did ask the seller if the soundpost was hollow. I will wait for his/her answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 I found this on the "Hole of the heart" technique: "there is something that’s been dubbed a “hole-in-the-heart” operation. You’d have to get your local violinmaker/luthier to do this for you. Confronted with a flat, some change the tire and some convert the car to a tricycle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacPherson Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 Confronted with a flat, some change the tire and some convert the car to a tricycle... But, sometimes the trike is cooler that the car it was made from. In a world full of mediocre fiddles, there is little harm in experimenting with a few. Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Stross Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 But, sometimes the trike is cooler that the car it was made from. In a world full of mediocre fiddles, there is little harm in experimenting with a few. Mac Love the steps. Bit understated.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhook Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 Hey, Mac, when do we get to see the rest of the instrument in your avatar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacPherson Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 Hey, Mac, when do we get to see the rest of the instrument in your avatar? Cap'n, I'll bring it along to show you next time I am in Brevard. Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjham Posted September 14, 2013 Report Share Posted September 14, 2013 Hi. I now have this instrument. The violin has a piece of wood running from the top of the soundpost (the soundpost buts into this piece of wood) to the bassbar, attached to the top plate at the soundpost and I think attached to the bassbar. The metal pin runs from and perpendicular to this piece of wood through the top plate. There is a large wooden plank attached to the bottom and top block, running perpendicular to the to top plate but not attached to it. Rather like a very large bass bar down the middle of the instrument. It is deeper than half the distance between the top and bottom plates. The smaller piece of wood described above runs through the top of and is attached to this piece. The bridge supplied with it has a hole in the foot to allow for the pin, the pin passes right through the treble foot of the bridge. I'm not sure if this arrangement of the bridge is correct or not. Looks to me as if the idea is to transfer the vibrations of the top plate from the soundpost area and bass bar via the small piece of wood to the large plank running down the middle of the violin. Haven't set it up yet, so don't yet know what it sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacPherson Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 PJ, I am glad to hear that this instrument has ended up in the hands of someone who will appreciate it. I have a soft spot for experimental-stuff and wish I had the budget to collect them. I am having a bit of trouble understanding your description of its unorthodox underpinnings. Could you make a sketch for us? Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallie Posted September 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Thank you for telling us you now have this violin. Let us know how it sounds when set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 All you have to do is look it up. Gustave Tarle http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1497998.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert MacPherson Posted September 15, 2013 Report Share Posted September 15, 2013 Thank you, Doug! Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjham Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Thank you for the reference to the patent application, most interesting. I suspect that this instrument is an earlier version as it lacks the hole in the belly under the middle of the bridge and both bridge feet contact the belly. The metal pin you see in the photo is embedded in the treble side of the "counter-bridge" and as far as I can tell just serves to locate the bridge directly above the "counter-bridge". Apart from these two differences, the lever system inside is as described in the patent application. I will comment again after I have set it up for playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjham Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Here's another variation on the theme of resonating plates inside the violin. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261287772798?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1412584.pdf http://www.mandolincafe.com/glossary/glossary_14.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjham Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Thanks. Have had another look at it. The "counter-bridge" is not attached to the top plate under the treble foot of the bridge. The sound post fits into the bottom of the "counter-bridge" next to the metal pin. From the preceding discussion on the "hole in the heart" operation, I assume that the bridge that came with the instrument is wrong and that the treble foot of the bridge should sit on top of the metal pin and not touch the top plate at all. I would appreciate your advice on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanot Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Modified about 3 years ago a 7/8 rather lack lustre violin I made early in my career to hole in heart viola..can be done with shorter children's instruments as well for the kids who like the bass better than treble...a difficult process to keep the hole in top plate just larger than the sound post so that it doesn't rub against side..what it does mainly is free up vibrations of the top plate between the f holes as the plate is no longer restricted in movement by being pinched from downward force of treble foot and upward force of top of sd..not bad sound in bass range close to viola sound...treble a bit less rich and projecting. One can add a heavier tailpiece to enhance this conversion..Although the internal volume is smaller than traditional viola range,Violin Physicist Professor Beament in his book says the mathematical calculation of optimal size in violas would result in too large for player comfort...If not careful the post tends to move in direction of string tension or laterally and seize up against inner edge of hole...defeating its purpose ..I can't quite figure out the strange metal pin on this fiddle... doesn't seem to link with treble foot..there is a convex semicircle in the treble foot? treble foot. Hole in heart described in STRAD about 10 years ago especially for smaller student fiddles for kids who just aren't likeing the violin tonal range and prefer viola like sounds. One uses a glued dowel about 2 mm diameter and 5mm long set into ankle of treble foot(the foot being first removed at mid ankle..also set into the top of sd. post and glued. Dale P "Chanot" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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