Guadanini or Chinesini?

[Martin the violinist]

Hello everybody;

I suppose it's a fake, but just out of curiosity:

http://hudba.bazos.sk/inzerat/26230774/TopGaetano-Guadagnini-Top.php

The sound holes do not resemble typical Guadagnini's, and the scroll graft  seems to be nonexistent but the violin does appeal to me (no, I have no intent to buy it..)

 

What are your educated guesses at its origin?

[hendrik]

Can't find any records of a Gaetano Guadagnini making violins.  Except this one i guess

[Christopher Jacoby]

I like it. Someone obviously put love into the varnishing, even if they were planning to rip someone off.

[CCM]

Beautiful Chinese violin.  This model is wholesaled in S. CA.

[Martin the violinist]

Beautiful Chinese violin.  This model is wholesaled in S. CA.

 

Yes. Of the possible alternatives, this is my favourite one

[Violadamore]

You'd think Slovakia would be making their own "rubbish" Rather nice fake Saxon, though the scroll midrib underwhelms me. <Edit, took a better look, the midrib is sharper than I thought it was, but I'd like to see the back too. Chinese scrolls I've seen have a tendency to have broad, low midribs, very unsharp> .  The Chinese have often been blackening the inside of their pegboxes for some time now, BTW.  One wonders if the "audio" the seller offers to send would even be from this fiddle.

 

You've given me the horrid idea of copperplating some labels (and pastiching a Henley entry) for "Ignoto Inscrutibilio Chinesini", who ran noodle shops and small groceries in Brescia and Cremona in the 1600's, etc.when he wasn't selling violins   "Unquestionably Italian, records of the family go back to the 1300's or before in Venice, where they were associated with the Polos......"

[Martin the violinist]

So you think it's Saxon... It reminds me of another curious violin that I came across about two weeks ago. I thought it could be Saxon too (or just Schönbach?); not that nice, but kind of fancy :-)

http://aukro.cz/stare-housle-i3251497642.html

 

 

..

You've given me the horrid idea of copperplating some labels (and pastiching a Henley entry) for "Ignoto Inscrutibilio Chinesini", who ran noodle shops and small groceries in Brescia and Cremona in the 1600's, etc.when he wasn't selling violins   "Unquestionably Italian, records of the family go back to the 1300's or before in Venice, where they were associated with the Polos......"

 

Go ahead! You've got my permission to use that name

[Violadamore]

So you think it's Saxon... It reminds me of another curious violin that I came across about two weeks ago. I thought it could be Saxon too (or just Schönbach?); not that nice, but kind of fancy :-)

http://aukro.cz/stare-housle-i3251497642.html

 

 

 

Go ahead! You've got my permission to use that name

No, I was saying it's been made to look something like a Dutz (blackened pegbox, general antiqueing, and I was also being sarcastic), but I don't think it is.  The scroll fluting seems to go all the way, and the ff-hole wings are fluted.  I think that it's probably modern Eastern European trying wayyy hard to be Italian, though CCM may be right, as the Chinese are getting rather protean in their produce.  What I don't think it is is a Guadagnini, (and I think the seller means "Gaetano II Guadagnini").:

 

http://www.virtuosiviolins.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=60

 

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1307482

 

Besides the visually obvious, the price and the venue seem wrong.

[Martin the violinist]

Now I understand. I mistook your "fake Saxon" term for "Saxon fake" 

BTW, I haven't even realized that another Guadagnini could exist.

[Ratcliffiddles]

Beautiful Chinese violin.  This model is wholesaled in S. CA.

 

I keep asking... but nobody yet has seen fit to put a link to these various violins "wholesaled in S.CA", who are the wholesalers there?

 

While I am sure they do sell Chinese violins in S.CA, of all sorts of models, I just can't see it in this one.  

Of course, a fake, but Chinese? 

Please convince me, CCM, or anybody else in S.Ca. who knows that particular model and who to purchase it from.

 

By the way is that an outside patch repair on the pegbox at the "A" peghole?, that would be unusual on a new instrument, maybe I am just seeing things...

[Violadamore]

By the way is that an outside patch repair on the pegbox at the "A" peghole?, that would be unusual on a new instrument, maybe I am just seeing things...

Here's what I get with a little Photoshopping:

 

 

I am not seeing your outside patch, but I am seeing a possible scroll graft.  What do you think?

[Martin the violinist]

Well I myself cannot see any hint of a scroll graft; maybe it's so perfect that it's invisible... But wouldn't the faker rather want us to see it clearly if it was there?

[Addie]

I thought Chinesini was a country singer.  Shows you what I know about country music... 

[Violadamore]

Well I myself cannot see any hint of a scroll graft; maybe it's so perfect that it's invisible... But wouldn't the faker rather want us to see it clearly if it was there?

 

 

When I increased the pixel count, applied "fill flash" to the face on view of the scroll/pegbox, and zoomed in to look around, I saw what could be a very small pin on the treble side of the pegbox, and a discoloration which could be a matching one on the bass side.  There are also variations in color here and there along the top pegbox edges which might or might not represent changes in the wood exposed..  What Ratcliffiddles saw on the side view appears to be merely tigering,above and a scratch below the A peg unless there is a graft of some kind present.  I'm just giving the benefit of the doubt here, without better photos or access to the fiddle, it's problematic.

 

 

I thought Chinesini was a country singer.  Shows you what I know about country music... 

Oh goody, I'll make him a sonadore too    If I get these made it'll give us an equivalent to your "Dutzenarbeit", etc., labels to stick in "no name" Chinese

[WalterOB]

The usual disclaimer applies: not an expert, probably wrong, yadda yadda...

I don't see any features that really point me towards chinese and call me crazy, but I don't think it's Saxon either. The scroll has a scribe line down the center which I haven't seen on Saxon instruments. While I have observed this feature on around 70% of the Chinese violins I have seen, it is usually accompanied by a round button with a compass prick in the middle and sharper facets in general. If it is in fact Chinese, I would like to know the company.

[Dustin Liu]

Actually there are some fine Chinese markers are making exact copy of famous violins.They reference the picture of those violins and try their best to copy it. Those copies are not cheap craps. The price usually range from 3000 to 5000 depends on the tone wood. European tonewoods are more expensive. 

 

From the picture I think it is a good workshop violin. Because usually factory copies don't have oil varnish. This one looks has at least 3 layers of varnish. Each layer of oil varnish cost almost a week to dry. So it should be a workshop violin.

There are also details on corners and edges to show italian characters. Those are things you don't often expected to see on cheap factory violins. 

[Violadamore]

Actually there are some fine Chinese markers are making exact copy of famous violins.They reference the picture of those violins and try their best to copy it. Those copies are not cheap craps. The price usually range from 3000 to 5000 depends on the tone wood. European tonewoods are more expensive. 

 

From the picture I think it is a good workshop violin. Because usually factory copies don't have oil varnish. This one looks has at least 3 layers of varnish. Each layer of oil varnish cost almost a week to dry. So it should be a workshop violin.

There are also details on corners and edges to show italian characters. Those are things you don't often expected to see on cheap factory violins. 

Hiyas, Moonshade    The question on this thread, as well as on one I recently started http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328567-markneukirchen-bubenreuth-mittenwald-or/  is not "Can the Chinese make a good violin?", nor "Is the violin being sold a good or playable violin?" but rather "Is the violin offered for sale being grossly misrepresented as to origin and market value?"..

[Dustin Liu]

Hiyas, Moonshade    The question on this thread, as well as on one I recently started http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/328567-markneukirchen-bubenreuth-mittenwald-or/  is not "Can the Chinese make a good violin?", nor "Is the violin being sold a good or playable violin?" but rather "Is the violin offered for sale being grossly misrepresented as to origin and market value?"..

Yeah I understand. I am just trying to point out that you probably can't tell a fine Chinese violin with other label by the look.

Sometimes they make button crown and repaired peg hole to make believe. I have seen a violin maker copy a Strad. by the poster including all repairs.

Provide them detailed picture, you can even ask them to create a copy for you. 

[Blank face]

If the violin was listed on a website from Slowakia (.sk), it seems the most probable to me, to look for the origin of the violin in an east european country. Why do you all look so far, far away? There is not only China, there is also Hungary, R(o)umania, Czechia and Slowakia, all this countries have a not widely known, but nevertheless long lasting tradition of violin making, well trained makers (in the art of artificial aging, too) and they all need money. The pegs, for instance, don't look chinese at all, they look hungarian.

[Violadamore]

If you reference my Post #8 above, I hit that probability, albeit with a fairly broad brush.  The problem is that, as Moonshate noted, the Chinese are copying everyone else's stuff, as well as improving over time so it is becoming increasingly difficult to absolutely rule out a modern Chinese provenance (not just here, but in general).  I pointed this possibility out in a post some time back and was assured that one can always (and will always be able to) spot a Chinese violin.  I'm reminded of a certain scene in the movie Exodus, where Paul Newman is getting his eye examined........

[Violadamore]

Doubled post
 

[Blank face]

....or Humphrey "here's looking at you, kid" (in the german translation he says "look into my eyes") - but with this low-quality pictures (wilful made so, I suppose) we are not near enough to examine the eyes of the maker. But I can see, through fog and mist, a face not similar to the chinese violins I know,but to the hungarian eloborated antique copies. The style of the fittings (tailpiece and pegs, sometimes strings) may be helpful in this cases - and here they look (east) european.

Now the original advertising has disappeared, but if it's advertised as Guadagnini it's a fake, if as a good quality copy of G., it would be ok, and it's value corresponding to a western violin of the same quality.

[Violadamore]

Agreed, and I think you are right about the provenance.

[Deconet 1]

sleeping dog hendrik, look again,

[Jeffrey Holmes]

On 1/7/2021 at 3:33 PM, moorelia230@gmail.co said:

sleeping dog hendrik, look again,

Excuse me?