Bow Sound - Harmonically quantifiable?

[GlennYorkPA]

I've always found it difficult to hear the difference in sound produced by an expensive bow compared with a lesser one.

 

I don't hear anything that couldn't be accounted for by horsehair or rosin.

 

Are the harmonic rigs used to detect and record the sonic spectra of violins able to demonstrate the differences between say, a Sartory and a German trade bow?

 

Glenn

[~ Ben Conover]

If you are talking about up close bow noise, it's bound to be much the same from all bows.
The sound the bow makes from the back of the hall is another matter.
Don't see how a high tech quantifier would help.

[La Folia]

Right.  Everybody knows science is bunk because it can't detect imaginary differences. 

[gowan]

I've always found it difficult to hear the difference in sound produced by an expensive bow compared with a lesser one.

 

I don't hear anything that couldn't be accounted for by horsehair or rosin.

 

Are the harmonic rigs used to detect and record the sonic spectra of violins able to demonstrate the differences between say, a Sartory and a German trade bow?

 

Glenn

One aspect of this issue is that it is possible to find an excellent playing bow among factory bows but you might have to try a lot of them to find a good one.  In a factory setting it is difficult for the workers to get the most possible from any given piece of wood.  But if a worker is "going through the motions", treating all blanks the same, occasionally one will be treated just right and a very good bow will result.  Finding such a bow might require trying a lot of them, though.  The original question was about sound.  The bow makes the sound when the player uses it and the differences may show up in how difficult it is to make the bow make a good sound.

[La Folia]

For what it's worth, Glenn, I've always found it hard too.  A golden-ears bowmaker demonstrated to me that he can hear differences that I can't, but I don't think the differences are large.  My best sounding bow is actually the cheapest piece of lumber, and I've never found anything noticably better.

 

There were some tests done on some standard sawing machine (I forget who did the work), and the differences were minor.  I would expect to find minor attenuation at the resonant frequency of the bow, but not much else.  The more resonant the bow, the higher the attenuation.  I expect that it would be pretty much random as to whether the attenuation made a violin sound better or worse.  I'm putting on my asbestos suit now.

[Janito]

I have a range of bows that produce a very different sound on a given violin - and which provide very different vibrational feedback to the right hand.

 

Some time back I asked the question whether the optimal pair could be determined by the amount of right vibes.

[GlennYorkPA]

If you are talking about up close bow noise, it's bound to be much the same from all bows.

The sound the bow makes from the back of the hall is another matter.

Don't see how a high tech quantifier would help.

 

 

If you are talking about up close bow noise, it's bound to be much the same from all bows.

The sound the bow makes from the back of the hall is another matter.

Don't see how a high tech quantifier would help.

 

Ben,

I'm not talking about surface noise nor about the mechanical properties in spiccatto, detache etc.

 

I'm questioning the testimonies of people who say things like 'it produces a dark sound' or it pulls a powerful tone from the instrument'.

 

I spent last weekend comparing a relatively modest German bow with the likes of Fetique, Hill, Nurnberger and I can honestly say I hear very little difference in tone quality. 

 

Glenn

[GlennYorkPA]

I have a range of bows that produce a very different sound on a given violin - and which provide very different vibrational feedback to the right hand.

 

Some time back I asked the question whether the optimal pair could be determined by the amount of right vibes.

 

 

I have a range of bows that produce a very different sound on a given violin - and which provide very different vibrational feedback to the right hand.

 

Some time back I asked the question whether the optimal pair could be determined by the amount of right vibes.

 

Janito,

 

I'm sure you are right about hearing different sounds on a given violin. Others say this too so I don't like to dismiss these claims although I hear very little difference. That's why I'm asking if the differences you hear can be measured.

 

Glenn

[Rick Hyslop]

Just some thoughts on this topic.

 

I recently borrowed a cheap Chinese graphite bow from the shop where I get rehairs done. It turned out to be not too bad. I decided to buy one from a shop closer to home but none of them compared to the borrowed bow despite the fact that they were all identical Chinese graphite bows from the same factory. In the end I bought the borrowed bow because it was in fact ten times better than the others. I have had this experience with many different qualities of bows as well. One bow also may not suit one instrument and yet favour another. However, the biggest thing I notice that really affects the sound and action of a bow is the tension used. In general the tighter the brighter, but too tight becomes bouncy with possible side to side flexing when digging in.

So I feel there is a range in every bow where tone changes quite a bit due to tension used. My basic starting point is hair to stick distance roughly the thickness of the stick, maybe slightly less.

 

Regarding measurements I would think it is too complicated to measure such things because bowing techniques, desired sound etc. are so varied from player to player and instrument to bow relationships can play a huge role.

 

 

r.

[martin swan]

Glenn,

Currently I have about 30 bows in stock and about 30 violins. I can tell you unequivocally that each bow has a different character, which imposes itself on all the violins in roughly the same way. Sometimes this is to the benefit of the particular violin, sometimes not. I've had some of these bows long enough for them to be rehaired, and while the quality of hair is a factor, it's a small factor, as is the type of rosin, which I vary quite a bit.

The question of where the differences in sound originate is a difficult one, and I wouldn't venture an opinion except to say that the emphasis in frequency can vary a lot (though maybe it's more like a treble roll-off than a boost at a particular peak). Granularity is a feature of a particular stick, and can be overwhelming or can liven up a dull fiddle. Volume can vary quite a lot, and a lot of volume isn't always a good thing since it can be hard to turn down!

Purity of sound and great adhesion are what I look for, plus a spring which allows for imperturbable legato and a percussive controllable staccato. This would be my definition of a great bow.

A great bow is as likely to cost £500 as £50,000. As with violins, the notion that money buys musical quality is a total absurdity, though great makers would have to be defined as such by the consistency with which they produce great bows.

[GlennYorkPA]

For what it's worth, Glenn, I've always found it hard too.  A golden-ears bowmaker demonstrated to me that he can hear differences that I can't, but I don't think the differences are large.  My best sounding bow is actually the cheapest piece of lumber, and I've never found anything noticably better.

 

There were some tests done on some standard sawing machine (I forget who did the work), and the differences were minor.  I would expect to find minor attenuation at the resonant frequency of the bow, but not much else.  The more resonant the bow, the higher the attenuation.  I expect that it would be pretty much random as to whether the attenuation made a violin sound better or worse.  I'm putting on my asbestos suit now.

 

 

For what it's worth, Glenn, I've always found it hard too.  A golden-ears bowmaker demonstrated to me that he can hear differences that I can't, but I don't think the differences are large.  My best sounding bow is actually the cheapest piece of lumber, and I've never found anything noticably better.

 

There were some tests done on some standard sawing machine (I forget who did the work), and the differences were minor.  I would expect to find minor attenuation at the resonant frequency of the bow, but not much else.  The more resonant the bow, the higher the attenuation.  I expect that it would be pretty much random as to whether the attenuation made a violin sound better or worse.  I'm putting on my asbestos suit now.

 

I'm with you. I believe the differences are there but they are minor. I don't doubt they are there but their magnitude is subjective. Probably like wine tasting. Some folks can detect overtones of mango and cat's pee with a sassy brightness and lingering after taste whereas for me, it's just another Chardonnay.

 

If, by 'sawing machine' you mean a device that draws the bow mechanically back and forth across the strings, I don't think that would be adequate. You surely need the sensitivity of a player to produce the best sound. 

 

Glenn

[La Folia]

No, a player can't produce two notes exactly the same way, with exactly the same force.  You need a sawing machine.

[martin swan]

Are you talking about the sound of the bow as divorced from the act of playing?

In order to clarify, perhaps we could take an extreme example - Glenn, does a cello bow on a violin sound the same as a violin bow on a violin? Or if you're not able to do the experiment, would you expect it to, given what you've said about not hearing differences?

[Florian Schneidt]

I agree with Martin, there is a difference in sound of bows compared on a given instrument, and this sound will manifest itself on different instruments and enhance/comfort some characteristics of instrument (and/or player...). 

Myself I find it much easier to detect these sound characteristics when I don't play myself but listen to someone else. To the point that I have difficulties distinguishing the sound-differences when playing but clearly hearing them when I listen...

Then theres playing characteristics also.

In making I personally find it much easier to manipulate the playing characteristics of a bow than the sound and I look forward to participating the Oberlin workshop to learn...

In the end: when a bow is well made, looks good and handles well, it will find its customer..."Jeder Topf findet seinen Deckel" (Every pot has got a lid somewhere)

[Will L]

Jeder Topf findet seinen Deckel, behalve in mijn Keuken.

[GlennYorkPA]

Glenn,

Currently I have about 30 bows in stock and about 30 violins. I can tell you unequivocally that each bow has a different character, which imposes itself on all the violins in roughly the same way. Sometimes this is to the benefit of the particular violin, sometimes not. I've had some of these bows long enough for them to be rehaired, and while the quality of hair is a factor, it's a small factor, as is the type of rosin, which I vary quite a bit.

The question of where the differences in sound originate is a difficult one, and I wouldn't venture an opinion except to say that the emphasis in frequency can vary a lot (though maybe it's more like a treble roll-off than a boost at a particular peak). Granularity is a feature of a particular stick, and can be overwhelming or can liven up a dull fiddle. Volume can vary quite a lot, and a lot of volume isn't always a good thing since it can be hard to turn down!

Purity of sound and great adhesion are what I look for, plus a spring which allows for imperturbable legato and a percussive controllable staccato. This would be my definition of a great bow.

A great bow is as likely to cost £500 as £50,000. As with violins, the notion that money buys musical quality is a total absurdity, though great makers would have to be defined as such by the consistency with which they produce great bows.

 

 

Glenn,

Currently I have about 30 bows in stock and about 30 violins. I can tell you unequivocally that each bow has a different character, which imposes itself on all the violins in roughly the same way. Sometimes this is to the benefit of the particular violin, sometimes not. I've had some of these bows long enough for them to be rehaired, and while the quality of hair is a factor, it's a small factor, as is the type of rosin, which I vary quite a bit.

The question of where the differences in sound originate is a difficult one, and I wouldn't venture an opinion except to say that the emphasis in frequency can vary a lot (though maybe it's more like a treble roll-off than a boost at a particular peak). Granularity is a feature of a particular stick, and can be overwhelming or can liven up a dull fiddle. Volume can vary quite a lot, and a lot of volume isn't always a good thing since it can be hard to turn down!

Purity of sound and great adhesion are what I look for, plus a spring which allows for imperturbable legato and a percussive controllable staccato. This would be my definition of a great bow.

A great bow is as likely to cost £500 as £50,000. As with violins, the notion that money buys musical quality is a total absurdity, though great makers would have to be defined as such by the consistency with which they produce great bows.

 

Martin,

I'm full of admiration for your ability to distinguish between 30 bows based on the character of the sound they produce. I have no reason to doubt you because I have come across others with similar talent. It may be one of the reasons you are in the business and I am not. 

 

It seems the world is neatly divided into those who have hearing sensitive enough to hear the subtle difference in tone between different bows, and those (like me) who cannot.

 

I was hoping that Anders would wade in because he has a lot of experience recording acoustic differences between violins (which are also subtle). He is certain he can point to the differences between a Strad and a German trade violin so why not keep the Strad constant and plot the differences between a Tourte and a Chinese carbon fibre (for example)?

 

I just haven't heard of such comparisons being made and yet the bow selection is always claimed to be significant as far as tone goes.

 

Glenn

[martin swan]

Well that's a completely different question ....

Would one bow drawn mechanically across the strings of a given violin at a fixed speed and pressure create a different waveform from another? If it did, the difference would be marginal, and it would be to do with high frequency damping or pure volume (the wood absorbing energy as per the Lucchi scale), or it would be to do with the hair.

 

The problem is that a bow doesn't generate music, nor does a violin. It's the act of playing which makes the music, and once you have a particular stick with all its mechanical idiosyncracies, combined with a particular player and their technique, the differences in performance become huge!

 

So bow selection is an immense factor is tone production, but that has everything to do with the properties of a stick in dynamic complex motion, and nothing to do with the sort of thing one can easily measure.

But plenty of people have done it anyway - I'll see if I can dig out any studies. Addie kindly sent me some data on this subject a year or so ago ...

Glenn, if you'd care to PM your email address I'll send it on to you.

 

Once again, very often the Chinese bow will be better in every respect than the Tourte, except it's not a Tourte. People who choose bows blindfold get surprises (defined as nasty or pleasant for all sorts of different reasons)!

 

In this fascinating piece, neither Paul Childs nor Isaac Salchow suggest that valuable older bows are better technically : http://www.christies.com/features/in-conversation-with-bow-experts-2251-1.aspx

[Rick Hyslop]

Bows are like instruments. When you pick out a new one to try it takes time to get to know what it can and can't do. I can certainly quite easily hear differences in bows. However, if I could afford a Tourte or something similar I think I might spend the money on a new violin or 2 instead. I think most of the sound comes from the technique of the player and their use of the bow/instrument combination. My main bow is a 60 gram swan headed Pfretzschner with a round stick. I have yet to find a better bow that suits my playing.

 

 

 

r.

[martin swan]

It would be difficult to find a better bow (from a playing point of view) than a swan head Pfretzschner, especially if it's pre-1910.

[Jeff White]

Bows are like instruments. When you pick out a new one to try it takes time to get to know what it can and can't do. I can certainly quite easily hear differences in bows. However, if I could afford a Tourte or something similar I think I might spend the money on a new violin or 2 instead. I think most of the sound comes from the technique of the player and their use of the bow/instrument combination. My main bow is a 60 gram swan headed Pfretzschner with a round stick. I have yet to find a better bow that suits my playing.

 

 

 

r.

Rick, sounds like we need to do an evening comparison of bows at Oberlin this summer.........after scotch(the only way MY playing sounds good).  jeff

[Casey Jefferson]

IMHO, bows are "passive", they cannot make a sound on their own. So the first major contribution to "amplifying" the differences between the bows, is the instrument itself - the better the instrument, the more sensitive it is, thus bringing out the hidden potential/character of the bow. Then, IMHO, followed by a good hand to appreciate (or simply match the player more) thus able to bring out the differences of the bow.

 

With a video, one cannot judge anything about the playability of the bow, but the sound. Here's an example of a fine violin played by fine player. He switched bow halfway through the video. I think the differences being heard in this video, some people might regard it as "minimal differences", but note that this was probably recorded in a pretty casual way and probably with compact camera equipped with tiny mics, so I'm expecting the differences will be much more apparent if hearing it in person. Happy debating!

 

[Rick Hyslop]

Rick, sounds like we need to do an evening comparison of bows at Oberlin this summer.........after scotch(the only way MY playing sounds good).  jeff

 

Sounds good. Looking forward to it.

 

r.

[Rick Hyslop]

IMHO, bows are "passive", they cannot make a sound on their own. So the first major contribution to "amplifying" the differences between the bows, is the instrument itself - the better the instrument, the more sensitive it is, thus bringing out the hidden potential/character of the bow. Then, IMHO, followed by a good hand to appreciate (or simply match the player more) thus able to bring out the differences of the bow.

 

With a video, one cannot judge anything about the playability of the bow, but the sound. Here's an example of a fine violin played by fine player. He switched bow halfway through the video. I think the differences being heard in this video, some people might regard it as "minimal differences", but note that this was probably recorded in a pretty casual way and probably with compact camera equipped with tiny mics, so I'm expecting the differences will be much more apparent if hearing it in person. Happy debating!

 

I realize that this is a video and it is playing through my laptop speakers but I prefer the first bow personally. More open sound. More colour variance.

 

r.

[martin swan]

Have a look at the YouTube comments on that video ....

[GlennYorkPA]

Just some thoughts on this topic.

 

I recently borrowed a cheap Chinese graphite bow from the shop where I get rehairs done. It turned out to be not too bad. I decided to buy one from a shop closer to home but none of them compared to the borrowed bow despite the fact that they were all identical Chinese graphite bows from the same factory. In the end I bought the borrowed bow because it was in fact ten times better than the others. I have had this experience with many different qualities of bows as well. One bow also may not suit one instrument and yet favour another. However, the biggest thing I notice that really affects the sound and action of a bow is the tension used. In general the tighter the brighter, but too tight becomes bouncy with possible side to side flexing when digging in.

So I feel there is a range in every bow where tone changes quite a bit due to tension used. My basic starting point is hair to stick distance roughly the thickness of the stick, maybe slightly less.

 

Regarding measurements I would think it is too complicated to measure such things because bowing techniques, desired sound etc. are so varied from player to player and instrument to bow relationships can play a huge role.

 

 

r.

 

 

Just some thoughts on this topic.

 

I recently borrowed a cheap Chinese graphite bow from the shop where I get rehairs done. It turned out to be not too bad. I decided to buy one from a shop closer to home but none of them compared to the borrowed bow despite the fact that they were all identical Chinese graphite bows from the same factory. In the end I bought the borrowed bow because it was in fact ten times better than the others. I have had this experience with many different qualities of bows as well. One bow also may not suit one instrument and yet favour another. However, the biggest thing I notice that really affects the sound and action of a bow is the tension used. In general the tighter the brighter, but too tight becomes bouncy with possible side to side flexing when digging in.

So I feel there is a range in every bow where tone changes quite a bit due to tension used. My basic starting point is hair to stick distance roughly the thickness of the stick, maybe slightly less.

 

Regarding measurements I would think it is too complicated to measure such things because bowing techniques, desired sound etc. are so varied from player to player and instrument to bow relationships can play a huge role.

 

 

r.

Rick,

I've had similar experiences to the one you describe where a seemingly unworthy bow has performed surprisingly well but most of what I am judging is the  feel and performance of the bow, not the quality of sound it elicits from the violin. 

 

When the sound characteristics become so subtle, it surely becomes a nonsense to specify Mongolian, Argentinian or mare's horsehair.We are now heaping subtlety upon subtlety and I find it hard to believe that anyone can hear those differences.

 

Glenn