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On April 19, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Patrick KREIT said:

John Schmidt: 

The best thing to do is to buy a pH meter and verify it yourself.

Borax casein cannot withstand washing with hot water, whereas lime casein is insoluble and resistant.

Roger Hargrave has also explained this phenomenon in another thread.

www.kreitpatrick.com

Patrick,

 

It took me a few days to remember. Yes, of course you are correct. The lime casein is insoluble.  I am surprised at my mind playing that trick on me. I wonder what other things it is does.

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Thanks Melvin,

"The varnish is not doing it justice"

If you could elaborate, it would be appreciated.

Varnishing is so difficult,  and I wanted to try something new on this one. It's quite dark (much darker than the images). One problem area was the wide sap wood stripe. I looked at Roger's varnishing from The double bass document, there he deliberately let varnish go through the ground layer in some places on the top. I tried something like that but probably not that successful. I have also used only heavily colored varnish

Some of it will be polished away and protected with an uncolored thin layer when finished.  

Maybe I should have stopped at this stage:

WP_20170420_19_26_45_Pro.thumb.jpg.7f75281321c2e014fadac19c108cecad.jpg

 

 

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On 19.04.2017 at 0:00 PM, Peter K-G said:

Glad you found Patrick's post, impossible to explain this any better, I'm practicing different possibilities from that.

Here is another example, done in summertime when it was possible to expose the violin to sun light, no colors added. The best way i can explain the difference to other grounds I have used is that it is Golden (not yellow)

 

Dear Mr. Peter

I am 53 years old, I live in Poland in Poznan, I am an amateur lutherman and I am mainly learning from the internet.
I admire your beautiful work. I tried to use ground with curd and lime, but I have a problem with the equally application of this ground on the whole surface of the violin. I use a sponge, but there are places where there is more ground, spots arise. Please advice - what kind of application technique should I use?

this is link - galery of my last instrument https://goo.gl/photos/Q5HHdCPmWJfqnfqg9

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13 hours ago, Szymon said:

Dear Mr. Peter

I am 53 years old, I live in Poland in Poznan, I am an amateur lutherman and I am mainly learning from the internet.
I admire your beautiful work. I tried to use ground with curd and lime, but I have a problem with the equally application of this ground on the whole surface of the violin. I use a sponge, but there are places where there is more ground, spots arise. Please advice - what kind of application technique should I use?

this is link - galery of my last instrument https://goo.gl/photos/Q5HHdCPmWJfqnfqg9

Nice work!

I always use a lint free linen cloth. This also burnish the surface and makes it smooth and easy to apply varnish. Thus less varnish is needed for the first layer(s).

You need to work fast and rub the emulsion into the surface.  If you have a dry workshop you might need to add some extra water when you mix the quark and lime.

After that add 5% linseed oil and stir it well. One other thing to consider, if you tan your violin in UV, you might need to wait a couple of days before you apply the ground because the wood is starved of water, which makes the emulsion dry very fast.

You can also make corrections by using a damp cloth and rub out unevenness after the ground has dried, right after the application. After it has dried a couple of days its more difficult to correct. 

Practicing on some wood pieces is also helpful.

 

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I would say that they are transparent enough, but as always colors adds certain amount of opacity, but so do thicker layers of dark varnish.

What you see in the album is very thin varnish (6 g in total weight). That's even less than my previous pale violins you have played.

I had to adjust the varnish technique a little and applied thinned layers (4-5) that where extremely colored (almost black).

Here is comparison in different light:

 

WP_20170424_18_56_06_Pro.thumb.jpg.88e2b157686640224e585153cb1ebffc.jpg

WP_20170424_18_57_38_Pro.thumb.jpg.5ed964bcd0050e46a4867872fc4da8d6.jpg

 

 

 

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On 21.04.2017 at 4:43 AM, Patrick KREIT said:

The readymade casein that is marketed is not intended for use as a ground, but only for painting walls and decorating furniture, by adding pigments and linseed oil (the latter is essential to avoid cracking and flaking).

Only casein made with fromage blanc (and lime or borax) can be used in violinmaking. This sizing is very thin, unlikely to crack, and dries in a few minutes. To increase its suppleness and impermeability, it is necessary to add a plasticizer (linseed or castor oil, or glycerine or glucose), which also facilitates application.

Casein (lime or borax), like varnish, is micro-porous.

www.kreitpatrick.com

Dear Mr. Kreit

I am 53 years old, I live in Poland in Poznan, I am an amateur luthier and I am mainly learning from the internet.
I admire your luthier knowledge and beautiful work. Your books I did not buy, because I am a modest teacher of Polish language and history, but so much information you give on other sites and I use them very much - for what I thank you. I tried to use ground with curd and lime, but I have a problem with the equally application of this ground on the whole surface of the violin. I asked Peter G for advice how he use it, but I wiil be greatfull if You would write to me your way to application this ground. I use a sponge, but there are places where there is more ground, spots arise. Please advice - what kind of application technique should I use?

this is link - galery of my last instrument https://goo.gl/photos/Q5HHdCPmWJfqnfqg9

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Szymon, although I have reduced the contents on my site, it still provides enough information.

For 1 violin, prepare the casein according to the following recipe:

10 g of drained, fat-free fromage blanc (curd / Quark / twaróg)

1 g of lime (preferably slaked)

5% linseed oil (0.5 g to 1 g, maximum)

 

- You can modify the fluidity of the casein by adding water.

- You can modify the percentage of lime according to the desired color of wood.

- If you have quicklime, wait awhile until the lime in the casein has slaked.

- Casein can be used with quicklime to obtain the color of old wood.

(Test the color on a wood sample before applying it to the instrument).

 

It is best to expose the violin body to UVs:  the casein’s reaction on the wood is more spectacular. Wait a few days after removing the instrument from the UV cabinet so that the wood regains a little bit of moisture.

Casein preparation

Add the lime to the fromage blanc and mix well with a wooden spatula. When the sizing is ready, it gives off a slight odor of ammonia (according to my nose) or rotten fish (according to Peter’s nose). A lack of this distinctive odor indicates that the binding has not formed: you must start all over again.

Then add the linseed oil (or castor oil, or glycerin) and mix well. The sizing is ready.

Before applying the casein on the wooden instrument, you must fill the pores with tripoli, pumice, or the best product: colloidal silica.

Casein application

Take a 20 × 20 cm square of worn, lint-free cotton, fold it into fourths, dip this into the casein to take up a small amount of sizing, then apply the casein with this pad on contiguous regions. This application must be carried out rapidly.

For the neck, use a brush, then wipe with the pad.

Let it dry for 15 to 30 minutes, then recommence the operation. After drying, check to see if you have missed any areas (touch them up, if necessary).

Never sand casein, for it is too thin. Sanding will bare the wood and allow varnish or paint to penetrate, leaving unsightly stains.

Never use a sponge to apply sizing on an instrument:  the sponge will absorb water and oil from the casein, leaving a residue that is too dry and non-adherent on the wood.  

www.kreitpatrick.com

 

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35 minutes ago, Patrick KREIT said:

Szymon, although I have reduced the contents on my site, it still provides enough information.

For 1 violin, prepare the casein according to the following recipe:

10 g of drained, fat-free fromage blanc (curd / Quark / twaróg)

1 g of lime (preferably slaked)

5% linseed oil (0.5 g to 1 g, maximum)

 

- You can modify the fluidity of the casein by adding water.

- You can modify the percentage of lime according to the desired color of wood.

- If you have quicklime, wait awhile until the lime in the casein has slaked.

- Casein can be used with quicklime to obtain the color of old wood.

(Test the color on a wood sample before applying it to the instrument).

 

It is best to expose the violin body to UVs:  the casein’s reaction on the wood is more spectacular. Wait a few days after removing the instrument from the UV cabinet so that the wood regains a little bit of moisture.

Casein preparation

Add the lime to the fromage blanc and mix well with a wooden spatula. When the sizing is ready, it gives off a slight odor of ammonia (according to my nose) or rotten fish (according to Peter’s nose). A lack of this distinctive odor indicates that the binding has not formed: you must start all over again.

Then add the linseed oil (or castor oil, or glycerin) and mix well. The sizing is ready.

Before applying the casein on the wooden instrument, you must fill the pores with tripoli, pumice, or the best product: colloidal silica.

Casein application

Take a 20 × 20 cm square of worn, lint-free cotton, fold it into fourths, dip this into the casein to take up a small amount of sizing, then apply the casein with this pad on contiguous regions. This application must be carried out rapidly.

For the neck, use a brush, then wipe with the pad.

Let it dry for 15 to 30 minutes, then recommence the operation. After drying, check to see if you have missed any areas (touch them up, if necessary).

Never sand casein, for it is too thin. Sanding will bare the wood and allow varnish or paint to penetrate, leaving unsightly stains.

Never use a sponge to apply sizing on an instrument:  the sponge will absorb water and oil from the casein, leaving a residue that is too dry and non-adherent on the wood.  

www.kreitpatrick.com

 

I am very grateful for the answer.
Thank you and best regards - Szymon

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On 24.04.2017 at 8:22 AM, Peter K-G said:

Nice work!

I always use a lint free linen cloth. This also burnish the surface and makes it smooth and easy to apply varnish. Thus less varnish is needed for the first layer(s).

You need to work fast and rub the emulsion into the surface.  If you have a dry workshop you might need to add some extra water when you mix the quark and lime.

After that add 5% linseed oil and stir it well. One other thing to consider, if you tan your violin in UV, you might need to wait a couple of days before you apply the ground because the wood is starved of water, which makes the emulsion dry very fast.

You can also make corrections by using a damp cloth and rub out unevenness after the ground has dried, right after the application. After it has dried a couple of days its more difficult to correct. 

Practicing on some wood pieces is also helpful.

 

I am grateful for the answer. 
Thank you and best regards - Szymon

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I have been secretly copying Fjodor's latest violin and it looks like I got it about right. While waiting for the fittings and strings to arrive I have tracked the modes as the violin gain weight after varnishing. With a chinrest stable at 356 g. It's Plowden like with a strong B1- and less strong B1+

  A0 B1- B1+ B1-/B1+ Humidity
349 273 465 555 90 20 %
356 270 455 540 85 20 %

predicted values:

400 270 440 520 80 40 %

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On 2017-04-30 at 1:41 PM, Peter K-G said:

I have been secretly copying Fjodor's latest violin and it looks like I got it about right. 

 

          %

That's sneaky :)

Just kidding... I'm an a alphabet when it comes to signature modes and stuff. It will be interesting to see how they compare soundwise.  

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Yes it sure will be.

I'm waiting for a package from Dictum, strings and fittings etc.. 353 € huh. It just keeps getting more expensive. Maybe i should start selling some violins.

If this one is as good as yours I'll sell it for 15 K€ ;)

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Today i set up the first strings on my instrument nr 14.
The first measurements of resonances - jpg
I used Kremer pigments nr 522006, 523006, 524006. Effekt you can see here - https://goo.gl/photos/wJNFRDbWjTFd37uy7

Tomorrow of course, not yesterday - sound test. This night I have a big problem with sleeping. Do you know this emotion? 5913859845c9d_A0.270_B1-.456_B1_544.thumb.JPG.b0d0f2ae3c3a752449feb18dafa239bf.JPG

Edited by Szymon

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Beautiful work and varnish!

And I have to admit, I have had sleepless nights before, when setting up a new violin and testing :)

Not so much these days, right now I'm having trouble forcing myself to make the nut, saddle and bridge to get the latest to sing.

From the spectrum it looks like a well balanced violin - hope it sounds fantastic.

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