Mike Molnar's Bench

[FredN]

shows you just can't enough reflectance in the undercoat. Too bad the turn into the corner which normally has minimal wear isn't clear-

[Don Noon]

2 hours ago, FredN said:

shows you just can't enough reflectance in the undercoat.

I think that vapor deposited aluminum would be too much.  

The wood is what's reflecting, and the stuff on the wood either helps or hurts, but I wouldn't want it to reflect on its own.

[Michael_Molnar]

I do want to talk a bit about my conversations with Bruce Carlson and Davide Sora, but I want to post some other fun photos of my visit which will take me to the topic of grounds.

Above is the famous statue before Stradivari's earlier home. His famous workshop was torn down and a plaque (below) was later placed over the location.

Cremona is a historically important town. Its Roman foundations are about 10 ft below today's surface. I went down into the Violin Museum's garage to photograph these Roman wells and patio. In 69 C.E., the year of 4 emperors (!), Cremona was sacked in a battle between two Roman Legion factions. 

I had the pleasure of a great dinner with Bianca and Bruce Carlson located near the Po River. I can still recall the fantastic Italian dishes: pasta with mushrooms and truffles, pork fillet, and a superb sorbet for dessert. Yum.

 

Before I left Cremona I visited Davide Sora. 

  

Davide and I had a wonderful exchange of ideas. He mentioned Dragon's Blood and how his colleagues quickly discovered how fugitive it is. Around the corner from his shop, I spotted this in a supply shop window.

I took the photo with Jim Bress in mind because of his interest in Dragon's Blood. The display also had these two colorants and lots of artist colors for touchups.

One objective of my visit to Bruce and Davide was to get their opinions on the Cremonese ground. On the Stradivari violin in Bruce's shop, the varnish is pretty much worn away leaving behind a polished surface that is essentially the ground. We confirmed this under UV light. Here is a photo that does a decent job in reproducing the cinnamon color of the flames.

I brought to Cremona two samples of my attempt to recreate Stradivari's golden ground. Bruce and Davide said the same thing: my ground is too strong and needs to be subtle. In artist language, I need to reduce the chroma.

My ground is a very simple water-based organic colorant commonly found during Stradivari's time. The chemistry is very simple and fits in with historical Renaissance practices. There are no particulates such as silicon dioxide or colored earth; however, it includes proteins. In fact, the difference in the 2 strips is that the top one has less protein. Anyhow, the issue for me is to learn how to adjust the ground's chroma (brightness) while maintaining its hue (color)  and permanence. I have a tendency to apply too much to the point that I do not need a colored varnish! 

Another issue is aging effects. As Don Noon mentioned, we are looking at a highly worn surface on this violin. It is essentially colored ground with a clear coat. Also, this ground colorant probably faded over the centuries, especially in the shallow top-most areas but remained strong in the flames. This makes me believe that I should focus more on the pristine Messiah that has a strong chroma. Bruce gave me a copy of the BVMA Issue 90 Winter 2017/18 that includes his seminal presentation Stradivari vs Vuillaume at the BVMA 301 Conference. Bruce showed how the Messiah came from the hand of Stradivari, not Vuillaume as some historians would want to believe. Bruce's paper is also a wonderful review of the Messiah's characteristics.  I also purchased at the Violin Museum's bookshop, The Absolute Stradivari the Messie violin 1716/2016 symposium report. I can say that this visit to Cremona was a successful education for me. Again, my thanks to Bruce and Davide. 

On my bench, I have 2 violins prepared with my ground. These will be at the VSA Competition and in the Maker's Display room. Again. I hope to get useful feedback.

 

[Andreas Preuss]

On July 31, 30 Heisei at 1:10 AM, Michael_Molnar said:

Below are photos of my latest violin before I apply colored varnish. I am still learning how to manipulate the colors; however, the red flames are very apparent.

Would like to see your interpretation in motion. 

For any thoughts on the Cremonese ground pictures of the real thing are always the toughest critics. I find it extremely difficult to create the impression of crystalline wood. Below a picture of a Strad from the Tokyo exhibition. The light hits the surface at a very low angle which makes this effect visible very well.(I hope)

the color varnish seems to float on top. 

[Michael_Molnar]

8 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Would like to see your interpretation in motion. 

For any thoughts on the Cremonese ground pictures of the real thing are always the toughest critics. I find it extremely difficult to create the impression of crystalline wood. Below a picture of a Strad from the Tokyo exhibition. The light hits the surface at a very low angle which makes this effect visible very well.(I hope)

the color varnish seems to float on top. 

When maple is finely finished I get this effect. The floating color points to Layer 4 being separated from the ground by Layer 3 clear varnish. Layer 4 also has more opacity differentiating it from Layer  3. There was a Pressenda at the Indianapolis VSA that had this beautiful effect when sunlight illuminated it through a skylight. 

A major issue is that Strad changed his materials and preparations. This is described in B&G. 

[Michael_Molnar]

Here is a closeup photo of my latest results which I will show at the VSA.

The red is enhanced in warm incandescent light. The reddish dots are in the pores filled with the ground.

Below I tried photoshopping to something closer to what my eyes see.

That is, I see chestnut red rather than flaming red and a golden yellow, not canary yellow. 

I took these photos with a LUMIX Panasonic DMC-ZS100

 

 

[Nick Allen]

That's really nice there. 

[Don Noon]

On 10/10/2018 at 8:46 AM, Michael_Molnar said:

Bruce and Davide said the same thing: my ground is too strong and needs to be subtle. In artist language, I need to reduce the chroma.

Anyhow, the issue for me is to learn how to adjust the ground's chroma (brightness) while maintaining its hue (color)  and permanence. I have a tendency to apply too much to the point that I do not need a colored varnish! 

It was also my impression that the color put on the wood was too strong.  If I had to start with fresh wood (which I don't), I'd use UV and nitrite to get the wood itself the right color, and then not much color at all in the ground.  I don't know if this agrees with the varnish research, but it's what I see in the old fiddles (not the nitrite/UV, but the effects of age) and what most good modern makers seem to do to make it look like them.

[Michael_Molnar]

9 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

It was also my impression that the color put on the wood was too strong.  If I had to start with fresh wood (which I don't), I'd use UV and nitrite to get the wood itself the right color, and then not much color at all in the ground.  I don't know if this agrees with the varnish research, but it's what I see in the old fiddles (not the nitrite/UV, but the effects of age) and what most good modern makers seem to do to make it look like them.

It's all a matter of degree, namely concentration needed to meet an evaluator"s expectation.  What I now have is close to what I saw in Cremona. All I have to do is dilute it. Badda bing. Badda boom.

 

[Don Noon]

I played around with various water dyes, solvent dyes, varying concentrations of color and carrier for ground color, and never got anything that really worked to my satisfaction.  What I have now I like... photo posted here.  See if it looks about right.

[Michael_Molnar]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I played around with various water dyes, solvent dyes, varying concentrations of color and carrier for ground color, and never got anything that really worked to my satisfaction.  What I have now I like... photo posted here.  See if it looks about right.

It looks good, but we really need to examine these in person together. Your system looks bichromatic (2 distinct colors), not dichromatic (spectral blend between 2 colors)  that I have. Nevertheless, yours looks very good.  I take it that your method is not water-based. Mine is, which fits B&G's findings. I am trying to figure out what Strad did, not what looks like his methods.

Looking forward to getting together at the VSA. Congrats on your VMAII success. 

[Michael_Molnar]

It's time to cook (roast) some rosin. I usually cook during warmer days. but some health issues, traveling, and family chores set me back. 

 

The blue box controls the stirring mechanism. The black box is my temperature controller. The pot is loaded with Burgundy Rosin and will be cooked at 230C until I am happy with its color.

 

[Guest]

Fun stuff...how long do you figure it will take to achieve the color you like? The price of burgundy resin has really increased in the last few years. It looks like you have good amount in the pot. I like to weigh mine before and after to see how much was lost. More photos when you can please.

[Michael_Molnar]

I used to get Burgundy rosin (BR) fairly priced, but now it is exorbitant.  I asked my main supplier and she said it was the French market. Go figure. So I have been lurking the Internet looking for reasonable prices. Not much out there. In the photo, there are nearly 2 lbs, but I added more a few minutes ago. Now it is 2.5 lbs. BTW, all BR sources are not the same. Some have more embedded solvents. Others are more oxidized. I used to get BR from Scents of the Earth in Cape May, NJ. I can no longer afford it.

As for time, I will do it as long as I don't get bored. I will start sampling after 6 hours. The weather will also matter. I may have to stop and restart. If I restart I will need to be careful not to burn it. So I will pour it out. Break it up. Then reheat. That's my plan if it comes to restarting.

I will add photos of my (hopeful) progress. 

 

[Guest]

If you recall,  I was the one who told you about Scents of Earth in Cape May, knowing they are not far from where you live and at that time their price was the best out there. Now,...fahgettaboudit.

Every supplier I have check with seems to be selling via the French market. Too bad about the price increase because it's a great resin. Fortunately I bought enough to last me.

Good luck with your cook. Pretty snazzy set up. 

[Michael_Molnar]

Yes, Ernie, I remember you telling me about Scents of the Earth. Thanks. I wonder whether my promotions of BR helped put the price in orbit. 

Anyhow, I just now stopped cooking and poured off the BR through a strainer into an aluminum cake pan to cool. A leaf fell into the pot yesterday and turned into charcoal which was removed with the strainer. The cooked BR is probably the darkest I ever made. I will show samples later when I have time. 

Here is a thought: I lowered the temperature last night from 230F to 210 C to reduce evaporation. In the morning I saw that this did not stop the color from getting darker, but it did reduce the boiling off. I suspect that my continuous stirring was more important for oxidation and darker color than the higher temperature. In other words, the idea may be to just get the rosin liquid with moderate heat and stir it to help oxidation via air exposure. In the past, my rosin formed a skim coat that would have reduced oxidation.  I hope to hear from others if they too see this.

BTW, in the above photo, you can see the nice color of the rosin in a drop on the pan edge.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Yes, Ernie, I remember you telling me about Scents of the Earth. Thanks. I wonder whether my promotions of BR helped put the price in orbit.  

Very possible, especially if you told them that you were using it for making violin varnish instead of incense. 

I had a curious yellow jacket bee fly into the pot while cooking the varnish at 550F.  At the end while filtering there was no trace of him.

I like the idea of using a stirrer. I will try and find one on Ebay.

Thanks for showing.

[Don Noon]

41 minutes ago, Michael_Molnar said:

...you can see the nice color of the rosin in a drop on the pan edge.

Nice color in a drop = almost no color at all when made into a varnish and applied thinly, in my experience.  If the drop looked black, then I think there would be a chance for good color in the varnish without pigments.

I too am considering one of those stirrers for future resin cooking and varnish making.  More equipment... and with a motor!

[Michael_Molnar]

 

Well, in the photo below, I smeared some varnish I made this afternoon using the cooked Burgundy rosin. It is red IMO. This is in sunlight. The drop does appear almost black.

We can talk at the VSA about this. 

[Michael_Molnar]

Felt better yesterday, so I cooked some burgundy varnish.

I have a short movie on Facebook showing how the stirring rate varies. 

 

[Jim Bress]

Nice video.  I hadn't realized how fast it was stirring or the variable speed.  Pretty cool.  I want one.  Can you show some more details on your set-up?

[Michael_Molnar]

Here is the stirring mechanism;

https://www.amazon.com/Mophorn-Electric-Overhead-Stirrer-Mechanical/dp/B06W2HNPPP/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_469_lp_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=TGPES76PBKKT50ZP288K

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Felt better yesterday, so I cooked some burgundy varnish.

I have a short movie on Facebook showing how the stirring rate varies. 

 

Looks like you added something red to the BR,...madder?

[Michael_Molnar]

32 minutes ago, lpr5184 said:

Looks like you added something red to the BR,...madder?

[Guest]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 12:21 PM, Michael_Molnar said: