Roger Hargrave Posted September 5, 2013 Author Report Posted September 5, 2013 Roger, what consistency must the varnish be when you rub it in over the plaster ? It varies with my varnishes. The thicker it is the less you waste and the slower it sinks in. If it sinks in slowly you have the chance to stop it with the extra powder that I spoke about. However, it is obviously better if you have it well sealed in advance. Again this is experience, if you seal it (with the plaster mix) too much, the varnish won't key to the wood. Also a thicker varnish is harder to rub off; especially if you are adding powder, because it will stiffen it considerably. If your varnish is very thin you might try NOT sealing with the plaster mix first. You might try mixing the plaster mix to a THICK honey consistency using the thinner varnish rather than water. Then you just need to rub it in everywhere with a lint free cloth. This works just as well, but my experience is that this is even more wasteful of varnish and if you are not careful it can get patchy. I think that I should also repeat here what I have said several times already. There are two approaches to varnishing. We can try and find out how and what they (whoever they were) used and try to make and do the same. Or we simply try to make something similar that works. This latter option is the option that you see here. I have spent many hours discussing this with Brigitte Brandmair. I have also bought and read her book. So I know that she did not find minerals in the ground layers like Barlow did. But Barlow was in the 1980's and she was mainly working with a Montagnana sample. (Don't panic! They won't crackle like that; it was probably the oil that he used.) I started using this system back then; I have gradually refined it and it works and it looks good. I hesitate to say that it has even fooled several experts. And just to alleviate any last fears. This system does not create the kind of mineral thickness that Barlow found and photographed. It is very much thinner than that.
pbelin Posted September 5, 2013 Report Posted September 5, 2013 About this thick mineral layer Barlow found, I wonder if anyone has come up with a realistic way to do that… Everytime I tried leaving even a little bit of minerals on the surface, and whatever the bonding/wetting agent was, I ended up rubbing it off because it was patchy. The picture of this crumbling cliff in strads varnish still puzzles me…
LinkMan Posted September 5, 2013 Report Posted September 5, 2013 About this thick mineral layer Barlow found, I wonder if anyone has come up with a realistic way to do that… Everytime I tried leaving even a little bit of minerals on the surface, and whatever the bonding/wetting agent was, I ended up rubbing it off because it was patchy. The picture of this crumbling cliff in strads varnish still puzzles me… www.rubioviolins.com Reproduced with permission David Rubio 1934 - 2000 David Rubio died on Saturday 21 October, 2000 at the age of 65. Mineral Ground Recipe and Research www.rubioviolins.com/glaze1 - Application of Mineral Ground and Glaze Varnish
Carl Stross Posted September 5, 2013 Report Posted September 5, 2013 It varies with my varnishes. The thicker it is the less you waste and the slower it sinks in.......... Roger, what can I say ? A big THANK YOU !
actonern Posted September 5, 2013 Report Posted September 5, 2013 One of the things that really jumps out to me in this method is that by allowing controlled penetration of dark varnish into the wood, maple with "mediocre" figure still looks good, with beautiful contrasts like one often sees in the old master instruments made from less than stunning wood, and wood with beautiful flame just pops.
Roger Hargrave Posted September 5, 2013 Author Report Posted September 5, 2013 One of the things that really jumps out to me in this method is that by allowing controlled penetration of dark varnish into the wood, maple with "mediocre" figure still looks good, with beautiful contrasts like one often sees in the old master instruments made from less than stunning wood, and wood with beautiful flame just pops. You got that right. But as I pointed out, it is absolutely critical to get this right. Too much penetration and its black, too little and it just sits on the top.
Roger Hargrave Posted September 5, 2013 Author Report Posted September 5, 2013 www.rubioviolins.com Reproduced with permission David Rubio 1934 - 2000 David Rubio died on Saturday 21 October, 2000 at the age of 65. Mineral Ground Recipe and Research www.rubioviolins.com/glaze1 - Application of Mineral Ground and Glaze Varnish Thanks that saved me the trouble. David did a lot of useful work on this topic. He was a generous and genuinely nice guy and so was his wife. My brother lived and worked in Cambridge as did Neil Ertz after he left my shop. Neil and I would often visit him when I was over visiting my family. I supplied several of the varnish samples that Barlow examined including the Montagnana. It was taken from the centre of a large cello that had been cut down in the 19th century. David's method did work but I found that it did not allow enough penetration. However, it was closer in profile to Barlows results.
Michael_Molnar Posted September 6, 2013 Report Posted September 6, 2013 Now, before I close to find out what is happening in the world, (no comments here. I remember the last time I made a remark), I want to say something about the use of glues. I am meticulous about not letting surplus glue onto the surface to be varnished. BUT as you can see from the following photo when we bent and glued the back, a tiny amount of glue squeezed through the joint, (close to the center joint). The resulting white spots (animal glue) can be clearly seen. Imagine this on a larger scale and you have some idea about what can happen. I have said all this several times on this blog so - no excuses. Glue ghosts.
MikeC Posted September 6, 2013 Report Posted September 6, 2013 Glue ghosts. Yep, mentioned in another thread. So it penetrates a half mm and still makes a ghost which kind of rules out lack of penetration as a cause. So then you have UV flourescence and my favourite RI mismatch.
Michael_Molnar Posted September 6, 2013 Report Posted September 6, 2013 Yep, mentioned in another thread. So it penetrates a half mm and still makes a ghost which kind of rules out lack of penetration as a cause. So then you have UV flourescence and my favourite RI mismatch. And color mismatch.
Urban Luthier Posted September 6, 2013 Report Posted September 6, 2013 Roger: Your varnish has THAT MUCH colour in it from just cooked down resin and oil? I had no idea it could become that dark. just revisiting the photos -- yes it is astonishing Roger that you are able draw so much colour from the resin in your varnish -- even accounting for the contrast between the white plaster and the coloured varnish covering the ground -- the varnish itself appears very very coloured. The effect is very pleasing Chris
DBurns Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 Roger Thanks for such great teaching.
Magnus Nedregard Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 I tried to order the rabbit piss bottle, but apparently they don't ship outside US. I think they hugely underestimate the market of rabittless european violin makers. I've seen rabbit owners often are worried about their pet, because it pisses all sort of funky colours, orange, red, bright yellow... well fancy that. This is entirely normal amongst rabbits, depending on what they eat. Unfortunately there's no info on what to feed the rabbit to obtain the various colours, anyone have a clue about what to feed the bunnies?
CarloBartolini Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 Feed madder roots to the bunnies for a yellow-reddish tint? (info is from reading experiments with madder in animals) Anyone tried clarifying urine? Some color recipes call for clarified urine. A simple old method to clarify urine is to heat it in a pot and remove the scum as it raises to the surface.
LinkMan Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 I tried to order the rabbit piss bottle, but apparently they don't ship outside US. I think they hugely underestimate the market of rabittless european violin makers. I've seen rabbit owners often are worried about their pet, because it pisses all sort of funky colours, orange, red, bright yellow... well fancy that. This is entirely normal amongst rabbits, depending on what they eat. Unfortunately there's no info on what to feed the rabbit to obtain the various colours, anyone have a clue about what to feed the bunnies?
Michael.N. Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 Does it have to be Rabbit piss? What about human piss after a few pints of Guinness?
robertdo Posted September 7, 2013 Report Posted September 7, 2013 I tried to order the rabbit piss bottle, but apparently they don't ship outside US. I think they hugely underestimate the market of rabittless european violin makers. I've seen rabbit owners often are worried about their pet, because it pisses all sort of funky colours, orange, red, bright yellow... well fancy that. This is entirely normal amongst rabbits, depending on what they eat. Unfortunately there's no info on what to feed the rabbit to obtain the various colours, anyone have a clue about what to feed the bunnies? Well if you've eaten enough beetroots you know that it doesn't only happens to rabbits Even if one is aware of this, it's kind of scary when it happens. then you remember what you've eaten the day before and relax a little bit...
Roger Hargrave Posted September 8, 2013 Author Report Posted September 8, 2013 Robertdo, I'm a big fan of beetroot and eat lots of the stuff, but I never learn and that scary moment happens to me almost every time. But I am beginning to sense a lowering of the tone on this thread. So I will quickly move on to the Bass varnishing process. After a lot of thought I decided to varnish the ribs and back first and the belly and head later. Two reasons: 1. I have a tight staircase down from may workshop and a walk through my garden to the new drying shed. 2. I am going to try antiquing this bass and I don't want too much work at one time. Actually I am quite terrified of the prospect. I have antiqued many cellos, but this is my first bass. Having pored a little of the varnish into a pot, I selected a 1 inch synthetic artist brush. The wider brush is just to remove any lose bits of dust etc. I always use good quality brushes, because they keep their shape and don't lose hairs. Because my varnish is quite thick I also use a fairly stiff brush. I use cheaper ones for sloshing on the plaster mix. Within reason the thicker the varnish is the less likely it is to run when drying and the fewer coats you will need. If you are brushing it out well, varnish tends to find its own natural thickness. I have not yet decided how many coats I will need, but for the moment it is looking like it will be two. When I am antiquing I want the ground coat to be hard and very dry. This is why I added dryers and also why the ground coat has now been drying for about 100 hours. However, I don't want the top coats to become two hard because of the wearing process that will follow. The problem with several coats is that the upper coats will always be softer while the lower coats will continue to harden. For this reason as soon as the first coat is hard enough to brush on a new coat without it pulling, that is when I apply the next coat. This is of course not desirable if you are not going to antique the instrument. In that case you do need to let each coat dry well before applying the next one. For those of you that cannot believe that this color is simply from cooking I suggest you look at the jar in the picture. This is a Strasburg Turps varnish. The varnish that I have used in the bass and the violin was made from colophony. The recipes and method are more or less the same. I am still not sure which I prefer.
actonern Posted September 8, 2013 Report Posted September 8, 2013 Beautiful! Can I ask... looking at the handwritten details of how the varnish was made... do you cook the mastic along with the resin together for 7 days, or does the mastic get added at the final 1 hour cook with linseed oil? E
Michael_Molnar Posted September 8, 2013 Report Posted September 8, 2013 Roger, That ground color looks great. Very nice. Can you give us a feeling for how viscous your varnish is? Compare it to honey or some other household item. Mike
Roger Hargrave Posted September 8, 2013 Author Report Posted September 8, 2013 Beautiful! Can I ask... looking at the handwritten details of how the varnish was made... do you cook the mastic along with the resin together for 7 days, or does the mastic get added at the final 1 hour cook with linseed oil? E NO NO NO. The mastic and oil just at the end. ONLY the resin is cooked that long.
Roger Hargrave Posted September 8, 2013 Author Report Posted September 8, 2013 Roger, That ground color looks great. Very nice. Can you give us a feeling for how viscous your varnish is? Compare it to honey or some other household item. Mike It's hard to say, but that golden clear honey is almost too runny and the white stuff is too stiff. Thick dark treacle or molasses is probably close. If it gets too stiff you can thin it sparingly with a little with lamp oil. This works better than turpentine substitute because evaporates more slowly and leaves no residue.
Carl Stross Posted September 8, 2013 Report Posted September 8, 2013 It's hard to say, but that golden clear honey is almost too runny and the white stuff is too stiff. Thick dark treacle or molasses is probably close. If it gets too stiff you can thin it sparingly with a little with lamp oil. This works better than turpentine substitute because evaporates more slowly and leaves no residue. Kerosene ?
actonern Posted September 8, 2013 Report Posted September 8, 2013 Can I ask further... do you add alum or any other stuff to the cook? I feel like I'm in the "chamber of secrets" and can't stop asking questions! E
Urban Luthier Posted September 8, 2013 Report Posted September 8, 2013 ...For those of you that cannot believe that this color is simply from cooking I suggest you look at the jar in the picture. This is a Strasburg Turps varnish...Ok now I get it, when you look at the varnish in the jar it doesn't appear any where near as dark as I thought. The blob on the back of the bass also gives a good indication of the consistency -- almost like marmite!I take it you've got a good camera as the white balance in the photos look natural -- it gives us confidence what we are seeing is fairly accurate Thanks Roger Chris
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